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[RAM]

It is just the whole attitude of "don't waste your vote on something that can't win" which bothers me, doubly so in voting systems that are weak enough that it is actually true. I just dislike it when people vote for things that they don't want under a beliefe that they can't have what they want, when if they actually want it then maybe other people also want it, maybe enough that it can actually win, but it can't win because there is a false perception that it can't win. Thus rather than getting the benefit of a chance of your thing winning, or at least an indication to the actual winners that people actually like the sort of thing that didn't win and thus maybe see some compromise, we get the complete absence of any sort of competition because it sinks into a choice between two things that might win and if you don't choose the one of those that you prefer then you can't blame anyone if the other one of those things win and you get stuck with the worst of two evils and blamed for the outcome even though you opposed it in your own way. Maybe voting politics is the wrong term? Metavoting perhaps, except... effective-voting theory?

[Roboson]

I mean, it's an inherent aspect of a voting system that some things will win and some things will lose. That doesn't mean that its a weak system. Yes, there is a method to the madness of voting. A time to understand and recognize the difference between betting on a dark horse and a dead horse. This may be the case of a dark horse, but to me it doesn't look that way. There is something to be said of pushing through an idea and getting traction through force of argument, I don't and haven't denied that. Its just that with the way voting goes sometimes, a third party candidate isn't going to be a viable option. Its an understanding of the system that I was simply pointing out. I think that the system is neither broken, weak, or has false perceptions. There just comes a time when things can't gain enough traction to win (Like when you need 3 votes and there are only two remaining voters), and recognizing when an idea is unlikely to win the vote or is incapable of winning the vote is a matter of understanding the situation. And making the best of that situation is part of these games. When playing things like these, making the best out of not only what the GM hands you, but also the decisions of all the other players is part of the fun. It happens to everyone.

[RAM]

I feel as though if I wanted to play a game about voting, I would play Mafia...

And it is a "weak" system in terms of expressing what people want to choose, achieving a balanced compromise, getting popular support for the final outcome... anything that you would actually want out of voting aside from having someone else make the decision or having something that can be manipulated by those who care to do so, or being manipulated by chaotic forces that leave everyone dissatisfied... it seems like a system that is inherently disempowered from its own perspective, which I would cite as a passable definition of weakness. A strong voting system would actually tend towards permitting people to actually vote for what they actually want to vote for. A strong system would present basically zero barriers to voting for a dead horse. Doing so would not detract from your ability to get an outcome that you approve of. People can change their votes n the forum.

 The strawpoll I don't know, I am not familiar with that, but people could all pile onto a new thing if they wanted to, and belief to the contrary is a false perception, yet people will hesitate to do so even if they would like to, on the basis that if they are the only one to do so, then the thing that they support will lose. Given that they want to change their vote, it seems that there is evidence of people who want to change their vote and no evidence to the contrary, other than the fact of it not happening. This is the sort of thing that I mean with false perceptions. We can still have fun from the decisions of other players if people actually get what they want, just not in the midst of voting.

I mean, you say that you don't deny the value of arguing for a thing, but then basically say that it only applies when that option is already popular. When I actually tried to argue my case you suggested that it might be protest vote or I was "incredibly set on it" which implies more favouritism than rationality, even though my arguments were right there. We would be basically giving them some great options for their side of the equation when we would otherwise be primed to starve them. I, for one, don't fancy trying to martial a plague of fruit-flies because nothing else has enough generations to evolve, while the enemy is supernaturally organised and got science for free from magic, which is basically evolution but faster and with less loss. But unfortunately, Eternal is "a third party candidate" that "isn't going to be a viable option." so force of argument should be abandoned.

But strong voting systems involve a small measure of complexity which really isn't conducive to the difficulties involved in getting a group of random players to collaborate, so there is usually little use in discussing the matter and this is tarting to go off topic.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Grain: 5 votes; Rice: 6 votes; tomato: 7 votes. 11 people wanted starch, they would have settled for rice or grain, but none of them wanted tomato to win. they split their vote because there were two similar options and one different option. All the fruit supporters went for tomato and so it won, even though it was less popular. Now there are protests in the street over the starch shortage and they are erecting guillotines. The fruit lobby doesn't have the numbers or support to pacify the situation... There should have been a way to combine votes for similar options. Weak voting system.

Grain: 5 votes; Rice: 5 votes; Tomato 3 votes. There is a tie. There would not be a tie if the fruit lobby had a say on the specific type of grain that they would have to put up with in the absence of fruit, but they can't. The arguments stretch on for months as the government is paralysed, then Meatopolis charges in and with no foods of their own, the entire population is overwhelmed and crucified by those meaty fiends. There should have been a way to reduce the incidence of ties. Weak voting system.

Grain: 8 votes; Rice: 6 votes; Bread: 2 votes. Well I would have loved to vote for bread, it sounds really exciting, but if I had then those filthy rice barbarians would have won and then where would I be! So goes the public sentiments, but then the smell of bread flows from Bakeston and most of the population leave their homes to follow it. They knew bread was good, but they just couldn't take the risk. They are barred entry and lack the strength to return nor force their way. They slowly starve to death, then their ghosts are lured in by the same smell, and trapped inside the blessed bakers ovens to feed the flames for all eternity. Back home the economy collapses from the lack of labour to maintain the infrastructure. Soon the rice fields dry and they have nothing left. The soon resort to cannibalism before following the murderous path of bread that claimed their neighbours, and will shortly claim them also. There should have been a method to vote for what you truly wanted without compromising your reliable choice and momentum of established options should not dominate a system that is supposed to replace inherited authority. Very weak voting system!

There are better ways...

Magic gives them science, which is extremely strong but heavily implies accountability, we can exploit that if they are pressured for resources. Eternity gives them immediacy, which again is very strong, but heavily implies reduced efficiency. Massed numbers and dedication to effort both very heavily imply massed expenditure. They are almost certain to drive themselves into a resource deficit. That is the good path.

The bad path is giving them regimen which grants them efficiency of operation and reduces their resource debt. It is also freakishly terrifying. You don't want to be in the path of a legion, or a phalanx, or a musket square, or carpet bombing, or an ant trail...

Perfection is not that bad but is not that good either. It sounds strong but in practice it is more about restrictions than power. A perfect being doesn't defeat a pragmatic one. The perfect muscle control, with the perfect precision of motion, and the perfect awareness of the self, with the perfectly composed and familiar blade in the hand, is not much use when there is sand and light in your eyes, a table flying at your stomach, they have three loaded crossbows and a combat net, and they offered a large sum of money to the people behind you... Perfection is about ideally matching something, not about being pragmatically better in any way. Also, we can likely pick it up from a mass-production theme, so terrible action-economy. and it gives them, well, pragmatism. I don't want to fight pragmatism...

[IcyTea31]

Voting: if it really becomes a problem, we can change to a transferable vote system or something. The current problem, however, is that a lack of compromise is taking time and getting in the way of gameplay and fun.


What do you mean when you give regimen as an opposing trait to adaptability? I don't really understand what link those concepts have.

Perfection does in fact beat pragmatism, or at least be a fair fight. If you can literally beat the opponent with one hand tied behind your back, it doesn't matter when they pull out the rope.

Immediacy is also not the only counter to eternity. I'll keep my mouth shut for now since they read this thread, but resource-starving them won't be possible if we take eternal and they take that particular trait.

[Kashyyk]

Many of the arguments I saw above are solved by choosing Self-Sufficiency. Industry is all about consumption anyway, so if we can hammer that home as a trait they will seriously struggle, resource-wise. I personally can't think of a beneficial opposite to it, whilst we can apply it in multiple ways.

Magical: (4) Roboson, Madman, Maximum Spin, IceyTea31
Adaptation/Evolution: (3) Roboson, Kashyyk, Shadowclaw
Perfection: (4) Madman, Maximum Spin, IcyTea31
Eternal:
Self-Sufficiency (1): Kashyyk

[IcyTea31]

That actually makes sense. I can think of beneficial opposites, but I'll leave my mouth shut again.

Magical: (4) Roboson, Madman, Maximum Spin, IcyTea31
Adaptation/Evolution: (3) Roboson, Kashyyk, Shadowclaw
Perfection: (2) Madman, Maximum Spin,
Eternal:
Self-Sufficiency (2): Kashyyk, IcyTea31

[chubby2man]

Hail Forces of Nature! Your divine essence still twirls shapeless and undefined, waiting to be molded by your descriptions of your very being!

Since there is still not a clear majority, you'll have until tomorrow to have your say and have any last minute vote changes made. Tomorrow I will take the top two trait suggestions, or your spokesperson or whoever else you want should post them to the main thread at any time.

Don't forget your team can also help shape the starting situation at the game start by choosing races and a special resource!

[Shadowclaw777]

Spoiler: Don't Look At This Industrial bastards (click to show/hide)

Race: Moonkin: The Moonkin are a bunch of obtuse looking beings that are related to magic, but more so of druidic and nature kind. They correlate the energy of the moon to their own innate tendencies and there ability to wield magic and utilize energy to have become quite effective evokers of the magical force. However their correlation to the moon and magic has made this species quite nocturnal and have biologically adapted to their situation. To most of the First Humans they looked like large, flightless, sapient bird-like humanoids.

Descriptively, they are like large bipedal creatures have the size of an upright walking bear, but with bird-like features such as a beak, feathers, and flightless wings. Physically, they are quite large half-owls and half-bear humanoids (reaching 7ft and 300lbs) that have spread throughout forests, they have elongated lifespans which allows them live several centuries before they become motionless and succumb to death, however this comes at a cost of their reproduction primary in there gestation periods. The primitive Moonkins that acted on raw instinct and feral aptitude only breed and let their young hatchling eggs and than left them, hoping that the numbers compensate for their frailty and lack of guardianship. The Moonkin have a quite variety of their fur and feathers they have, usually from whitish grey to blackened brown as they have adapted to their environment and live in primitive societies. The feathery part of there both is more noticeable in the facial features of the Moonkin, and the fur is just an encompassing layer on its body. They as of their relation to bears and owls, have become the dominant apex predator of the forest and with their increased aptitude for magic, has allowed them to grow sapience. Lastly, they have big horns like a deer but this is more of a tool for intimidation than goring folks.

The Moonkin relation to magic has always been due to the wise and calculating nature that they have discerned from their owl brethren, they are imbued with the magical essence of nature and it has made them correlate as wide-tempered and staunch beings. Because of the enhanced lifetime of the owlbears they have become a stoic society that has relied on leader from sages and allowed wisdom to be their primary aspect they respect. The more elder of the Moonkin lead the tribes of the people.

Dominant Government Type: A'Wilshakatar Society:

A'Wilshakatar Society, or the A'wils for short, has formed into two major groups, the ones they call "Feral" and the ones to acknowledge themselves as "Sapient". The feral are the ones who have not have discerned signs of knowledge or ability to grow in nature. The "Feral" are often distant from society or utilized by the Sapient as a deadly berserker for nature, because even the ferals value the thing that they live in.

The Moonskins that have become sapience and never truly relied on unity as one of its traits to civilization. They form a sporadic colony of tribes that inhabit trees to jungles that al have their very unique biological trait to bear, whether a tribe that lives in a coniferous forests have adapted thicker and whiter fur to the environment, or the tribes in the jungle that have adapted the respective camouflaged to be more synchronized with their environment.

The Moonkin civilization is defined by close family-knit structured society of individualized tribes that all unitedly established a reverence toward nature and of the moon, and the night. They see themselves as bastion of nature and of the forest, willing to protect it from any great external threat that challenges it. The tribe's have made alliances, fought over petty indifferences, even established trading between them. But they all will willingly become united to any external threat that challenges there way of life and of the things they value that they must protect.

The A'wils have seen themselves establish as society that many may see as just primitive bunch of sapients have adopted wise tradition and have incorporated innovations to their tribes. The A'wils main thing they value above all us is of wisdom, and this has incorporated a society where the A'wils eldest known as the sages and wisebirds have both led a life of true leadership and of arcane study. The sages often go on pilgrimages to the forest sites where the A'wils claim the places has consecrated and divine to the gods they worship. The society both utilizes oral and written traditions to make sure that their culture continues and remains through their generations of livelihood. Modern forms of their gestation that have very lengthy periods that no not provide a reliable chance for the hatchlings, means that not many of the Moonkin get to survive, but the elongated lifespans have gave some insurance.

During wars or raids against others, the Moonskon utilize both the forensic nature of the Ferals and Sapients to act a force of nature, well-supported by their celestial elders that wield weird magical abilities to evoke magic and celestial to astral magic from the moon towards there enemies. Strike of Moonfire can burn an entire frontline of infantry; and the ferocious owlbears with their brutal and devotion attack infantry with raw power and power-breaking strikes through their own melee units. They are also quite resilient being quite large and tough and with the magic of the moon can be enchanted to withstand barrages of arrows to strikes of the sword.

The A'wils have never discerned a proper pantheon, they have always considered everything to have a guardian spirit over it, while larger spirits from nature to the trees have a more protective and power spirits surrounding it. However the moon spirit to them is considered the most powerful being that they serve to protect and mediate with.

The A'wils have helped the First Man learn of atonement and wisdom, they have teached the ways of nature and of its guardians. Have guided the most experienced of men towards escape from things which are only existing in the world and not of the magical nature. However as the First Man has been very exploitative of the generousity of the Moonskins and there ever expanding nature of colonialism challenges their hold over nature, contention is surely to rise.

Spoiler: Image for visually inclined (click to show/hide)

[Roboson]

Gnomes.  Grumpy little goons which live in holes and caves and grown hovels. They live in large clans of a few hundred marginally related members which each control a large swath of territory. Minor disputes over territory and resources are common among the various clans.  Their society is fairly egalitarian, with only moderate differences between the men and the women. Status is mostly a factor of age and experience. Each clan typically has a council of elders which mostly governs the clan. Each of the gnomes can transform into a few kinds of woodland creatures. This is a hereditary trait with children inheriting a shape from their parents, and discovering an additional one throughout their life. They are decent farmers, though hunting and fishing are more common. They typically use bone and leather to adorn their weapons and homes. However plaid is common, which each clan having their own plaid which signals their membership of that clan. As far as personality goes, they're fairly surly. They don't like outsiders and have a tendency to stab and eat first, ask questions later. Cannibalism is frowned upon, but eating other races of sapients is common. Burial rites consist of removing the skull and then burying the body. The skull is then placed in a sacred location to the clan. This is done so the clans ancestors may guide future generations. Their diet consists mostly of meat, fish, and tubers. Music is common, especially during annual holidays. Drums chanting and bagpipes are the main instruments. Art has a different meaning to these gnomes. It typically consists of bone carving. They also mark trees within their territory with faces, this is done so that tree spirits may fend off outsiders. All and all, they're a grumpy races of tiny clansmen who prefer to keep to themselves.

Spoiler: Picture (click to show/hide)

[FallacyofUrist]

Magical: (5) Roboson, Madman, Maximum Spin, IcyTea31, FallacyofUrist
Adaptation/Evolution: (4) Roboson, Kashyyk, Shadowclaw, FallacyofUrist
Perfection: (2) Madman, Maximum Spin,
Eternal:
Self-Sufficiency (2): Kashyyk, IcyTea31

[/quote]
~~~

I feel as though if I wanted to play a game about voting, I would play Mafia...

But Mafia's so much more than just voting!

[Tiruin]

Hwum I did not know there was a thread like this.

And I had to type the stuff on discord because I never knew things like these.

Nature: Write up two races and dominant civilization.
How do they respond to the First Men?
A resource, found only in Kantar. (Can be magical or mundane)
A wonder of the World

Tiruin - Today at 7:26 PM
Telepathic aminals 
I haven't been following because finals week T_T sorry
Tiruin - Today at 11:35 PM
So...I'm fully lost. Where are the ideas? 
Silly thoughts hitting me--we've 2 races, and one civilization. I'm thinking Dwarves  (because instead of INDUSTRIAL DWARVES, there's innovation nature; runes and growth! Till the Earth!), and probably something like a World Tree because Dwarven Vikings
Probably aiming for Low Fantasy here--for the resource being mundane/magical anyway. Response to First Man being benign, or anything characteristic that ends up with Dwarves going deep in the Earth, probably because the OP says 'Man took over' or something?
But yeah 
Also wondering if, one of the races, instead of teaching something material--taught virtues like thoughtfulness and openness. That's part of our side of the world anyway, because animism, shintoism, and other Eastern stuff with nature.
LET'S ADD YOKAI, BECAUSE A RACE CAN BE SPIRITS
I mean ._. I'd like others' thoughts since I can't find the notes for people OR the votes OR anything

To make it more realistic-ish, it's a tree with roots that go deep into the crust, able to create a cyclic pattern of nutrients and reabsorption--alongside casting its branches and refuge far into the sky, providing both cover and beauty. Also clouds form in the higher regions of the tree, and its root network stretches for miles underground. Its wood can be harvested--although that pertains to the outermost parts of the tree, as the trunk is shrouded in deep forest.
Etc...
Name the resource "Natura" make it 'mundane' in a sense that it is magical to us players, but mundane in-game :3 basically it makes the area where it is, more fertile. Can resource be partially abstracted? As in 'essence' instead of 'raw material'? Because that's where my thoughts are going.

Until Icy Tea boop'd me with thread links.

[RAM]

An obvious thing would be dryads. They would be forest protectors, but I envision them being somewhat naive and friendly, only being hostile when the grove they or their neighbours protect is attacked. And even when hostile, they would not be some sort of terrifying monster, just more able by a ratio that reflects their lower population density, and probably not even that much. Basically just a bunch of natural hippies who weaken and die if they are not within, say, a dozen kilometres of their tree. So industrious folk can either go without wood, carefully scour the world for trees that don't have guardians, grow their own plantations with dryad repellent around them, or murder a bunch of innocent people. Meanwhile nature has eyes and ears spread out over the natural world. Of course, the lack of individual mobility forces them into very low-density living and prevents mobility of high potency members, barring transporting their tree everywhere, perhaps with some sort of tree-animating magic? But that would have to be somewhat traumatic, so only for the dryads that have been mentally scarred already... Throw in some tree-based powers like tree-to-tree teleport and tree diagnosis and tree-phasing... Let the new ones carry their sapling out to wherever, or give them a year to find a tree to bond with or something...

It has the hazard of being more of a P.R. move than a force move. But it would make for very different fairy-tale if there were a bunch of forest people loitering around to rescue lost children, provided that they were on good enough terms to actually take notice... dryads would see a lot of predation and photosynthesis would incline one to regard it as something that other people did and doesn't really make sense to you but, it is clearly important to them...

It'd also be nice to have something that wasn't basically human. I mean, dwarves have their own theme, but aside from the lack of a sustainable ecosystem you can get a very similar theme from sticking a bunch of humans in caves and telling them to dig and make stuff...

[Roboson]

Ram you may want to join the discord. A lot of this has already been discussed days ago.

[RAM]

I am not going to join the discord. If it has been mentioned that this is a dicord game with a forum presence, rather than a forum game with a discord presence, then I apologise for missing that detail.

[Tiruin]

I am not going to join the discord. If it has been mentioned that this is a dicord game with a forum presence, rather than a forum game with a discord presence, then I apologise for missing that detail.

Now that's the spirit I like
To clarify: I'm not against using discord, but I've noticed how much nice banter goes on there that people WILL miss because despite discord saving literally everything, it's like a chatroom in that when you've less time than you want, you can't have the capability to check the logs as easily as if it was all said in the forum here.

Anyway, I've read up and WOW at all y'all suggestions :3
I'll be expounding on my idea of Dwarves, alongside the Wonder idea--either making it a great singular-like entity, or a species that is very rare (much like those giant redwoods we have IRL) that provide and also are awesomely exotic. And on Natura too. Later on :x busy busy at the moment.

Both teams may now pick their counter traits. Nature should also post their two races, their natural resource, and wonder here.

Also our team should pick a negative trait for the other?
How's about Progress at a Price, with the idea being along wasteful consumption and collateral damage at the start of most projects? (as is in history--this occurred a lot, until refining was done which helped branch out technology) I've little time to detail but it's something to think upon, however it makes more sense when in a social characteristic thanks Capitalism.
Also micelus is an environmental scientist so he cheats
But seriously: Mechanically, this means more 'extreme' overshoots, and successes, but also more extreme failures or otherwise since we're operating on a dice system. This may, perhaps, be an 'activated' trait (as in, chosen to be applied to a certain action or more when the Industry Balancing Act team picks a # of stuff to do)

I do love how people picked Nature traits that really stand out, and are really subtle in general knowledge. Much like the mysteries of the deep forest, and strange happenings that pretty much have happened in reality, those traits are great.

[...] Basically just a bunch of natural hippies [...]

As I'm not American, I wonder why everytime nature is mentioned, 'hippy' is mentioned at a near equal proportion.