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[notquitethere]

[...

Could I ask why there's a firsthand similarity, or at least how it seems to be to me, between you and Maximum Spin's ideas--that the cult leader would speak to or address the target--that isn't directly explained but used as a foundation for the reasoning written down?

Well at first blush it seemed logical. I thought that the cult leader would want to try to get a handle on the person who was considering their offer.  Now I'm of the opinion that the cult leader would probably avoid speaking to someone if that person had refused their offer. Everything depends on how the cult works mechanically, which only the cult leader knows (if there even is a cult-- Imic might be lying or could have received false information to mislead).

[randomgenericusername]

But why would a cult have to ask for players to join to be able to recruit them? It doesn't make any sense. Everyone could just refuse, knowing that everyone else would just exactly do that.

[Imic]

Hmmm...

[GigaGiant]

Maximum Spin

When did you learn about this message? Why did you choose to mention the cult after Imic brought it up, rather than earlier?

Beginning of d1, and because I currently understand the cult to be town-aligned. Answering the rest of your question is beyond the scope of the information I am presently willing and able to convey.

Well, alright. Is there any other information that you would be willing to share with us? Will you tell us more information if you survive to Day 2?

kingawsume

kingawsume

1. Why did you think it was unlikely that Maximum Spin was scum?

Law of Probability; we are, by simple majority, more likely to hit a townie D1 then anything else.

Okay, but that's technically true for a vote against any one of us. Doesn't seem that relevant.
Did you have any kind of read on Maximum Spin before you hammered? What's your read on Maximum Spin now?
Also, you missed Tiruin's question:

Err, if you think someone is town, even as unhelpful as they are at the moment, anyone has unsaid abilities and other actions that they can do to help their wincon. Unhelpful town being dead, is best off done later...like, not on D1 ._.

Do you have reads on other people that approach a similar degree of scuminess, kingawsume?
Or is there something about Maximum Spin that pushed him to be a priority to hammer-lynch for the near-future?

I had a read of "Annoying person" and just wanted to get rid of him from that. Now that's he's posted some more, I'm thinking something not so assimilar to a Spy role, except that it's a cult, not mafia. Alignment is grey, but I don't believe he's a cult member. I'll Unvote for now.
To Tiru, not yet. I'll look more when I have the time. Day ends tomorrow, right?

What is a "Spy role" capable of? Is it like the Spy mentioned on the Town of Salem Wiki, or is it the Spy/Traitor mentioned on the MafiaScum Wiki? Or something else?

Imic

Hmmm...

Why are you avoiding answering my questions? If nothing else, I would really appreciate it if you could at least answer these:
What choices do you have regarding that cult message you received last night? Can you only choose to accept it, or can you also choose to reject it?

[Silthuri]

Okay, kinda late and kinda large post incoming. Keep in mind that this is all chronological so if I bring up things that are already taken care of or explained etc I'm doing so to record my initial reactions to them (or at least before any clarifications or future events). So disregard any questions that have been answered that I leave in here. I also focused on people I found suspicious or just posts of theirs I found noteworthy. It's safe to say I'm pretty neutral to those I don't mention explicitly here.  Enjoy!

Spoiler: Maximum Spin (click to show/hide)

Secondly, I hoped you wouldn't do this Maximum.

Funnily enough, I hoped that after seeing it once, people wouldn't find the basic concept of "not answering every single question" so foundationally disturbing and confounding.

Not everyone here has had the luxury of playing with you before this game, such as myself. I believe you were lynched before I even replaced in, so I didn't look very hard at your play given that I was scum and had more pressing matters.

Seems more like something on your part with direct communication. I've worked with a lot of backgrounds in areas where communication is vital, and while the impression is true of 'bad communication' usually leading to misunderstandings and otherwise, that's diverging from the point of communication; an answer is better than none. It also shows respect to the other person too.

This one was especially vexing, because I find you completely incomprehensible. When I ignore your questions, it's not usually because I have no particular interest in the question per se, but because it struck me as total word salad. I like you well enough that I wanted to avoid saying as much, but, well, here we are. The thing is, 99% of the time, when something is ambiguous and incomprehensible, most people just make assumptions and carry on with their lives instead of bothering to ask of clarify, and then they just carry away their own radically different misinterpretations of the thing without ever sparing a second thought for the fact that someone else might have taken it differently. Most of the time you never even find out that it happened, because the effects are subtle and pernicious. This has probably happened to you and to everyone here many times before.

So, again, you're ignoring questions rather than asking for clarification? You're accusing Tiru of being extremely wordy (correct me if I'm wrong) and in your quote here you're being extremely wordy. Maybe I'm just being nitpicky here because I'm easily miffed where friends come in and I just have this natural urge to defend Tiru, especially when it comes to her writing :v And on reading further, you are extremely passive aggressive.

1) That's not very convincing. Nothing is actually stopping you from lying, unless you treat that word 'truthful' as sacred. What would you do as mafia if someone asks you "Maximum Spin, please tell me, truthfully, are you scum?"

You're misunderstanding the point here. In that case, I would either ignore the question (most likely, because it's a stupid question) or simply lie. The difference is not that the word 'truthful' is sacred, but that my promise to answer the question truthfully is. I wouldn't have given that if I was not prepared to follow through.

2) Why did you answer BlackHeartKabal's question then? You didn't consider that to be a RVS question?

You're making the same misinterpretation as Silthuri. I don't mean that "I don't answer RVS questions because I don't do RVS", I mean that I didn't answer your question because it specifically asked what I would do in RVS, and I don't have an answer to that because I don't do RVS. I answered BHK's question because it didn't include any assumptions like that. And this whole point of misunderstanding about what I meant is also why I usually just ignore these questions instead of getting bogged down in dumb arguments about them that inevitably distract everyone.

I'd like to restate a question I believe I and someone else asked and you conveniently didn't answer: rather than simply ignoring, why not just say what you said right here? Answer the question by saying you don't do RVS? If you have decent reasoning, the distraction would be significantly less than what we've been dealing with all day today.

Also, another question for Maximum Spin:

What's your read on each player that's voting for you?

I don't buy randomgenericusername's "I just have a gut feeling of wrongness!" line at all. That would be, like, kindergartener level of play or worse if he actually meant that. That whole post just reeks of stirring ambiguity to try to make it easier to get away with voting to lynch a town player while still getting to say "welp, guess I was wrong" afterward.

I'm 95% confident that kingawsume, on the other hand, is just naturally that pompous and doesn't necessarily imply sinister intent, though I'm certainly not ruling it out.

This is rubbing me the wrong way. Could be just me, but you seem to be making kinda personal attacks on people, especially with king here.

I'd also like to point out that you don't state a read on me in this post. I'm only mentioned as misunderstanding you.

Anyway, due to reasons, I can confirm that Imic was explicitly told that there was a cult.

Oh I can't wait to see the reasoning behind this as I read further in. Took you a while to say this, too.

Maximum spin, please explain this statement. How can you confirm this? Do you have a detective role?

Hm, I wouldn't call my role conventionally "detective", but it does involve getting answers to things, so in a way, yes. I knew you received a message from cultists because I was told this.

Still very cryptic and vague. I hope I find you say more on this, especially because you appear to be a popular option for lynching.

Is your role themed around "truth" in some way? Did you submit 2 articles and receive some sort of penalty to your role?

uhhh, kinda? It's also themed around not telling people what my role is, though.
I'm being 100% serious about that.
I did not submit 2 articles! I barely know enough about tvtropes to submit one.

Well then. I'd love to know how your role prevents you from telling people what your role is, when you're subtly doing that now.

Spoiler: randomgenericusername (click to show/hide)

Everything in Maximum's posts looks wrong to me. Like, very wrong. I don't know if it's a gut feeling or something, but I think he might either be scum or a really unhelpful townie. Since it's just day 1 and no one died night 1, can we risk misslynching? If we are going to lynch today, Maximum Spin seems like the safest choice of lynch. At least we will get more answers from his flip.
I think I might be tunneling him on accident, but there is just something wrong in the way he posts and I can feel it in my gut.

I've glanced ahead and know that someone gets on RGN for this "gut," but I'm not so inclined to get on someone for a gut feeling. When I started out, I put a lot of trust into my gut and had been attacked for it as well. I believe evidence is more important than one's gut and that one should follow up on gut feelings with evidence and such, but not leave it solely at a feeling alone especially later in the game.

But why would a cult have to ask for players to join to be able to recruit them? It doesn't make any sense. Everyone could just refuse, knowing that everyone else would just exactly do that.

While I also find the recruitment aspect odd, this is a BYOR and actually... I think it could be part of someone's wincon to join the cult maybe? I'm just grasping at reasons someone would want to join a cult aside from just a personal desire to mess with people.

Spoiler: BlackHeartKabal (click to show/hide)

I don't see much else we can do. Maximum Spin. We can hopefully nab leads by tomorrow.

This strikes me fairly wrongly at first glance. All of the sudden you pop up with a bandwagon vote and no reasoning besides "nothing else to do." Considering that you hadn't posted for a while, I would have expected more than this what with so much activity going on.

Spoiler: GigaGiant (click to show/hide)

Imic

notquitethere I have several reasons to be suspicioud of him, but I don't want to say any of them. I want to see what he thinks and what he says, but I don't think I'll get up to anything until tommorrow
Juicebox I haven't played mafia on the forum much, although I've done it a lot in real life, my playstile is usually to watch in the corner for signs of lying when questioned, and try to piece things together from that. I'm going to see now if that works on a forum.

1. Why keep those suspicions to yourself? If your suspicions are well founded, then what's the disadvantage of saying them now?
2. Instead of being passive and waiting for others to ask me questions, why not take the initiative? You can ask me questions directly. If I'm scum, then this would only help your case. Either I would answer your questions and potentially reveal more lies, or I would refuse to answer them, which would be suspicious in itself. What's the downside?

What's your opinion of Maximum Spin?

The thing that goes through my mind here are noobtells versus scumtells. You're attacking a relatively new player for being more passive in their gameplay. Do you really think this means Imic is scum or are they just learning the game?

Also, please note the highly emphasized parts in your reply to Imic. Are you trying to hint at something here? It's almost like you're trying to nudge Imic to think that Max is scummy based on his refusal to answer questions. You defend Max but then urge the new player subtly into believing that Max is indeed scummy.

Spoiler: Imic (click to show/hide)

I am suspicious of Notquitethere, because during the night stage, I recieved a message saying that a cultist was whispering innmy ear, asking me to join. I do not intend to join any such institution, and I have not replied, but notquitethere was the first person to acknowledge me, by asking what I wanted to do differently this time around. I'm suspicous if him because of the way he said that. I can also successfully say that you are not the cult finder, since you voted to lynch me, when you could have reccruited me properly tonight if I survived.
Now I have RL stuff to do.

I have many questions here. Firstly, you were suspicious of Giga and refused to say exactly why. Then you switched to NQT because he was the first to ask you anything after this attempted recruitment? This does give us useful info in regards to what we're up against, but I'm more confused than before. Were you given the option to join immediately and refused? I have a few ideas about this, but I want to hear the answer to this first.

Anyway, all of those voting Maximum Spin: With the added time given, do you still think he is the best person to place your lynch vote on?

I'm very confuzzled with the recent developments and I'm going back and forth between Max and Imic because of the cult shenanigans. I think Imic is a possible cultist and I don't necessarily trust his word that he doesn't want to join the cult. But Max's meager responses are still a source of confusion for me, so as of right now I suppose that my best choice is to place my vote on the person who has confirmed (by his own words) contact with a cult so Imic.

EBWOP:

[Silthuri]

EBWOP: that EBWOP wasn't supposed to be there :v

I was going to put in a PPE about how I noticed that the bulk of the post was (unintentionally) about Max.

[kingawsume]

What is a "Spy role" capable of? Is it like the Spy mentioned on the Town of Salem Wiki, or is it the Spy/Traitor mentioned on the MafiaScum Wiki? Or something else?

Town of Salem.

[randomgenericusername]

I think that it's probable that Maximum Spin was a cultist and he recruited Imic, then made the fake claim of his ability to support Imic's story about being asked to join the cult. Imic was the one who was "offered" to join the cult so he is probably not the cult leader but could still potentially be a cultist. I don't think we should vote for Imic yet.

[Maximum Spin]

Could I ask why there's a firsthand similarity, or at least how it seems to be to me, between you and Maximum Spin's ideas--that the cult leader would speak to or address the target--that isn't directly explained but used as a foundation for the reasoning written down?

Wait when the hell did I say that?

Not everyone here has had the luxury of playing with you before this game, such as myself. I believe you were lynched before I even replaced in, so I didn't look very hard at your play given that I was scum and had more pressing matters.

It would be fair to say that I hoped nobody would find the basic concept of "not answering every single question" so foundationally disturbing and confounding, whether they've had the opportunity to play with me before or not. But I would be especially more annoyed at people who had.

So, again, you're ignoring questions rather than asking for clarification?

Yes, because it's not my responsibility to make sure your questions make sense for you! I don't have this drive to answer questions just because they're there, remember?

You're accusing Tiru of being extremely wordy (correct me if I'm wrong)

Okay! Usually she isn't wordy enough, at least not in the direction of actual clarification, while the words she does use don't make sense in context and just add to the confusion.

Maybe I'm just being nitpicky here because I'm easily miffed where friends come in and I just have this natural urge to defend Tiru, especially when it comes to her writing :v

Look, I didn't want to bring it up, but she kept pressing the issue. I like Tiruin, okay, I just find her really really hard to understand most of the time. I was trying not to make a big deal out of it.

And on reading further, you are extremely passive aggressive.

If you think you see me being passive-aggressive, it's probable that you're misinterpreting something. Or just confusing sarcasm with passive-aggressiveness, which is a common enough mistake. Anyway, please explain when you think I'm being passive-aggressive? If I have ever been anything less than actually aggressive I would consider it a grave stain on my honour.

I'd like to restate a question I believe I and someone else asked and you conveniently didn't answer: rather than simply ignoring, why not just say what you said right here? Answer the question by saying you don't do RVS? If you have decent reasoning, the distraction would be significantly less than what we've been dealing with all day today.

Because I didn't feel like going out of my way to answer a question with faulty premises, and getting distracted by people not answering every single question is insane and terrible, so I didn't expect it to happen.

This is rubbing me the wrong way. Could be just me, but you seem to be making kinda personal attacks on people, especially with king here.

shrug

I wouldn't call any of that an attack at all, personal or otherwise, myself.

I'd also like to point out that you don't state a read on me in this post. I'm only mentioned as misunderstanding you.

Huh, I seem to have missed you, even though I was following the list of players in the first post.

Took you a while to say this, too.

Yep.
I mentioned it when Imic went out of his way to acknowledge it, since I considered it Imic's business and none of my own.

Well then. I'd love to know how your role prevents you from telling people what your role is, when you're subtly doing that now.

Hypothetically, the theme of the role could be about only doing things or giving away information subtly.

I think that it's probable that Maximum Spin was a cultist and he recruited Imic, then made the fake claim of his ability to support Imic's story about being asked to join the cult. Imic was the one who was "offered" to join the cult so he is probably not the cult leader but could still potentially be a cultist. I don't think we should vote for Imic yet.

Wait wait wait. Why on earth would I want to back up Imic's admission of the existence of a cult if I was in it? I'm not a cultist (I already told you, remember), and in fact I'm pretty confident there is no cult alignment in the game, but, if I was, and Imic was in the cult, I'd be telling him "hey genius don't tell everyone there's a cult", because why would any cult member want you to think there was a cult ever?

This kind of nonsensical elaborate loophole thinking is above you and why I think you are scum.

[Imic]

To all:
I said Notquitethere, but I meant gigagiant. It was a case of me forgetting someone's name because I was busy at the time. I feel like my point is less clear, and my case is on shaky ground, though, so I think I'm going to draw out until tomorrow.

[Imic]

I do not intend to join the cult. I am a townie as - is, and I am perfectly happy with that.

[GigaGiant]

notquitethere

Working on a hunch, I started writing out evidence for how GigaGiant is probably the cult leader. But now I've gone through it, it seems less likely/reading back I seem increasingly deranged. So the work wasn't wasted, here's what I found:

Spoiler: Case For (click to show/hide)

GigaGiant is probably Imic's cult recruiter.

My reasoning is, the cultist would have Imic on their mind and would be most likely to want to speak to them.

RGU, Silthuri, Tiruin, Tawa, BHK, Maximum Spin, and Kingawsume all first posted without addressing Imic. Juicebox addressed Imic with the same question as Tawa, and not their first question. I only addressed Imic on my second round of general questions.

Imic was the first person Giga directed a question to, and the first person to direct a question to Imic.

Imic - Hiya! What do you believe was your biggest mistake in the last mafia game you played and how do you intend to avoid that mistake again?

The question he's asking is prompting Imic to think about the choices that Imic is making in this game.

Also (a small point):

I think Affably Evil might be worth a try. It sounds like a trope that could possibly add some kind of nerf to the scum.

If he's a cultist recruiter, what could be more affably evil?

He hangs a lampshade on contacting Imic first here:

I am suspicious of Notquitethere, because during the night stage, I recieved a message saying that a cultist was whispering innmy ear, asking me to join. I do not intend to join any such institution, and I have not replied, but notquitethere was the first person to acknowledge me, by asking what I wanted to do differently this time around. I'm suspicous if him because of the way he said that. I can also successfully say that you are not the cult finder, since you voted to lynch me, when you could have reccruited me properly tonight if I survived.
Now I have RL stuff to do.

That wasn't notquitethere. That was me.

Finally, he keeps on Imic's tail about his cultist story. Is he trying to cast doubt on Imic now that the latter rejected the offer...?

Imic
You missed my last questions here.
Also, what choices do you have regarding that cult message you received last night? Can you only choose to accept it, or can you also choose to reject it?

Spoiler: Case Against (click to show/hide)

The cult leader would probably not want to keep foregrounding Imic and the cult story, they'd probably want to bury it. Unless the cult thing is something the pair of them cooked up and they're actually the mafia team, it's unlikely that Giga is the recruiter.

I wish I was a recruiter. However, if I was, Imic would be one of my last choices. I probably would have tried recruiting you or Tiruin, simply on the basis of experience.

Regarding some of your other points:
1. I was moving my RVS questions around a lot while I was originally editing them. I think I moved the questions for Imic and Silthuri to the top 2 slots because they sounded friendlier and I wanted to start with them. I also made sure that the questions for you and Tiruin were adjacent. Other than that, I didn't pay any attention to the order.
 
2. I was questioning Imic for a few reasons
_A. To clarify if he actually was talking about you or me in this post
_B. To find out his thoughts regarding Maximum Spin, who was being discussed by most of the town at the time. He hadn't commented on him or his behavior.
_C. As part of my effort to understand Maximum Spin's connection to him. I speculated in the same post that Maximum Spin would know when Imic accepted or rejected the cult offer, and I questioned Imic regarding that to check if my speculation was accurate.

Silthuri

Imic

notquitethere I have several reasons to be suspicioud of him, but I don't want to say any of them. I want to see what he thinks and what he says, but I don't think I'll get up to anything until tommorrow
Juicebox I haven't played mafia on the forum much, although I've done it a lot in real life, my playstile is usually to watch in the corner for signs of lying when questioned, and try to piece things together from that. I'm going to see now if that works on a forum.

1. Why keep those suspicions to yourself? If your suspicions are well founded, then what's the disadvantage of saying them now?
2. Instead of being passive and waiting for others to ask me questions, why not take the initiative? You can ask me questions directly. If I'm scum, then this would only help your case. Either I would answer your questions and potentially reveal more lies, or I would refuse to answer them, which would be suspicious in itself. What's the downside?

What's your opinion of Maximum Spin?

The thing that goes through my mind here are noobtells versus scumtells. You're attacking a relatively new player for being more passive in their gameplay. Do you really think this means Imic is scum or are they just learning the game?

Also, please note the highly emphasized parts in your reply to Imic. Are you trying to hint at something here? It's almost like you're trying to nudge Imic to think that Max is scummy based on his refusal to answer questions. You defend Max but then urge the new player subtly into believing that Max is indeed scummy.

1. That vote was intended as a pressure vote to make him talk. I wanted him to answer as soon as possible, since there was the possibility of the Day ending when FOU came back. I didn't consider him worthy of lynching at the time.
2. I was a little ticked at him because of his unclear "Why am I suspicious of you" questions earlier, so that probably influenced my tone.
3. I recognized that he was new, but I didn't agree with his play style choice and wanted to make that clear. I was trying to explain the advantages of being more proactive, though I admit my tone may have been too aggressive.
4. I wasn't hinting at anything nor was I trying to influence his opinion of Maximum Spin. MS was a topic of discussion for most of the town at the time, so I just wanted to know what he thought about MS, since he hadn't commented on him. I hoped his response would give me some insight into what he was thinking and how much attention he was paying to the game.
5. I wasn't trying to defend Maximum Spin. My vote would have remained on him had the hammer not been an issue. That's why I FOSed him in that post. I didn't want him hammered since that would cut the day short, and we would lose valuable scum hunting time.

Maximum Spin
You missed my questions.

Maximum Spin

When did you learn about this message? Why did you choose to mention the cult after Imic brought it up, rather than earlier?

Beginning of d1, and because I currently understand the cult to be town-aligned. Answering the rest of your question is beyond the scope of the information I am presently willing and able to convey.

Well, alright. Is there any other information that you would be willing to share with us? Will you tell us more information if you survive to Day 2?

Or was it that you just refused to answer them because the questions seemed too vague? Then I'll rephrase them:
Is there anything else within that "scope of information" that you haven't already mentioned and would be willing to share today (Day 1) or tomorrow (Day 2)?

This is my last question for you. I had much more to say regarding you, but I'll save it for tomorrow when I'm less tired.

Also, FOU, I think BlackHeartKabal needs to be prodded. He hasn't posted in over 3 days. Tawa might need to be prodded as well. It's nearly been 3 days for him too.

PPE:
Imic

I do not intend to join the cult. I am a townie as - is, and I am perfectly happy with that.

If you did want to join the cult, what do you have to do? Do you just respond to the cult message with a yes or a no?
Who do you think should be lynched?

[Maximum Spin]

You missed my questions.

Well, alright. Is there any other information that you would be willing to share with us? Will you tell us more information if you survive to Day 2?

Or was it that you just refused to answer them because the questions seemed too vague? Then I'll rephrase them:
Is there anything else within that "scope of information" that you haven't already mentioned and would be willing to share today (Day 1) or tomorrow (Day 2)?

I did in fact miss those questions, although I'm not sure I would have given them a straight answer anyway. As of right now I'm not sure I have any more information of import to volunteer, no. Tomorrow... I mean, we'll see what information I have tomorrow! I can't make any promises about that, obviously.

[Imic]

I don't know who should be lynched, since a lot of cases here are based off previous playstyles which I have not personally seen. As for the cult, I'm just not going to answer.

[FallacyofUrist]

Also, FOU, I think BlackHeartKabal needs to be prodded. He hasn't posted in over 3 days. Tawa might need to be prodded as well. It's nearly been 3 days for him too.

Noted.
~~~
Day 1 will end 9:00 P.M. Central/Forum time today(48 hours later than normal due to it being Day 1). The day's communal extension has not yet been used.

Votecount:
(3) *Maximum Spin: BlackHeartKabal, Tawa, randomgenericusername
(1) *notquitethere: juicebox
(1) *kingawsume: notquitethere
(0) *Tiruin:
(0) *Silthuri:
(0) *BlackHeartKabal:
(1) *randomgenericusername: Maximum Spin
(0) *GigaGiant:
(0) *Tawa:
(0) *juicebox:
(1) *Imic: GigaGiant

Not voting: kingawsume, Imic, Silthuri

(* denotes that the player has not yet used their personal 24 hour extension)

Tropecount:

((bolded orange is an acceptable alternative to purple for trope voting.))

(0) Rocks Fall, Everybody Dies:
(0) Affably Evil:
(1) Boring But Practical: Tawa
(1) Katanas Are Just Better: randomgenericusername
(0) Gosh Dang It To Heck:
(0) Worthless Yellow Rocks:
(0) Cincinnatus:
(0) Star-Crossed Lovers:
(0) Clock King:
(0) Time Master:
(0) Red Herring:
(9) Hilarity Ensues: notquitethere, BlackHeartKabal, Imic, Maximum Spin, kingawsume, juicebox, Silthuri, Tiruin, GigaGiant
(0) Jumping The Shark:

Not voting:

Trope in Effect: The Coconut Effect(scroll up)

((If you detect any flaws in the counts, please let me know))