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Author Topic: Fallacy's BYOR 3: GAME OVER(about time, too).  (Read 80452 times)

kingawsume

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #120 on: January 07, 2018, 08:56:20 pm »

I'd say go for lynch. Mislynching this early is acceptable, I'd like to believe.
Maximum Spin.
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BlackHeartKabal

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #121 on: January 07, 2018, 09:28:14 pm »

I don't see much else we can do. Maximum Spin. We can hopefully nab leads by tomorrow.
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GigaGiant

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #122 on: January 07, 2018, 10:06:17 pm »

Okay, I didn't see any other questions for me. So, my turn to offer some questions.

Maximum Spin
Are you scum?  :P
Okay, but seriously, why didn't you want to answer that question?
I will be generous and answer both truthfully:
1) No. I know what you're thinking, "you'd say that anyway", but, as a matter of fact, I wouldn't. If I were mafia, I would just not have offered to answer a question truthfully, in case it might give something away.
2) Because I don't believe in "RVS". I consider it foolish. As you can no doubt see, I don't generally feel the need to play along with this whole unproductive business.
1) That's not very convincing. Nothing is actually stopping you from lying, unless you treat that word 'truthful' as sacred. What would you do as mafia if someone asks you "Maximum Spin, please tell me, truthfully, are you scum?"
2) Why did you answer BlackHeartKabal's question then? You didn't consider that to be a RVS question?


Imic
notquitethere I have several reasons to be suspicioud of him, but I don't want to say any of them. I want to see what he thinks and what he says, but I don't think I'll get up to anything until tommorrow
Juicebox I haven't played mafia on the forum much, although I've done it a lot in real life, my playstile is usually to watch in the corner for signs of lying when questioned, and try to piece things together from that. I'm going to see now if that works on a forum.
1. Why keep those suspicions to yourself? If your suspicions are well founded, then what's the disadvantage of saying them now?
2. Instead of being passive and waiting for others to ask me questions, why not take the initiative? You can ask me questions directly. If I'm scum, then this would only help your case. Either I would answer your questions and potentially reveal more lies, or I would refuse to answer them, which would be suspicious in itself. What's the downside?

What's your opinion of Maximum Spin?


kingawsume
BlackHeartKabal
I'd say go for lynch. Mislynching this early is acceptable, I'd like to believe.
Maximum Spin.
I don't see much else we can do. Maximum Spin. We can hopefully nab leads by tomorrow.
I have a question for both of you: Do you believe that Maximum Spin is actually scum, or just a disruptive townie that we would be better off without?


randomgenericusername
Not trying to bandwagon, I'm just putting my vote here because it's almost time to sleep for me.
Why are you concerned about looking like you're bandwagoning?



Personally, I think it's a little early to conclude that we should lynch Maximum Spin. We still have time to further interrogate him to be more sure of his alignment, and look at other suspects. We still have four days left of Day 1.

....Well, we did. According to the Lurker Tracker, before I posted, Maximum Spin had 7 votes on him, which means he got hammered. So...yeah, having a vote count earlier probably would have helped us avoid that.  :-\

FOU, will that hammer still take effect if his vote count goes below 6 by the time you get back?
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GigaGiant

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #123 on: January 07, 2018, 10:09:44 pm »

Also, another question for Maximum Spin:

What's your read on each player that's voting for you?
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randomgenericusername

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #124 on: January 07, 2018, 10:24:15 pm »

randomgenericusername
Not trying to bandwagon, I'm just putting my vote here because it's almost time to sleep for me.
Why are you concerned about looking like you're bandwagoning?
Because just a moment ago before that post I was worried of the supossedly started bandwagon over you. I said
Yeah, 3 votes is probably little too much for supposedly random voting.
then voted Maximum Spin who then had 3 votes. I would probably be seen as me bandwagoning and I got worried and nervous.

I didn't want to vote at that moment but I didn't knew if I would have time later. If I hadn't voted before I would still have voted later because of my suspicion, but what if when I wake up there was already a lynch?
I just didn't want to make newbie mistakes.
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Immortality like that would be even more game breaking than four Aaron's in one place.
You're both so obviously scum that this is a surprisingly difficult decision.

Maximum Spin

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #125 on: January 07, 2018, 10:59:42 pm »

1) That's not very convincing. Nothing is actually stopping you from lying, unless you treat that word 'truthful' as sacred. What would you do as mafia if someone asks you "Maximum Spin, please tell me, truthfully, are you scum?"
You're misunderstanding the point here. In that case, I would either ignore the question (most likely, because it's a stupid question) or simply lie. The difference is not that the word 'truthful' is sacred, but that my promise to answer the question truthfully is. I wouldn't have given that if I was not prepared to follow through.
Quote
2) Why did you answer BlackHeartKabal's question then? You didn't consider that to be a RVS question?
You're making the same misinterpretation as Silthuri. I don't mean that "I don't answer RVS questions because I don't do RVS", I mean that I didn't answer your question because it specifically asked what I would do in RVS, and I don't have an answer to that because I don't do RVS. I answered BHK's question because it didn't include any assumptions like that. And this whole point of misunderstanding about what I meant is also why I usually just ignore these questions instead of getting bogged down in dumb arguments about them that inevitably distract everyone.

Also, another question for Maximum Spin:

What's your read on each player that's voting for you?
I don't buy randomgenericusername's "I just have a gut feeling of wrongness!" line at all. That would be, like, kindergartener level of play or worse if he actually meant that. That whole post just reeks of stirring ambiguity to try to make it easier to get away with voting to lynch a town player while still getting to say "welp, guess I was wrong" afterward.
I'm 95% confident that kingawsume, on the other hand, is just naturally that pompous and doesn't necessarily imply sinister intent, though I'm certainly not ruling it out.
I'm leaning anti-BHK, but not strongly, yet.
I also haven't been keeping track of who's voting for what, so I don't know who else falls into that category... so I'll just offer my thoughts on everyone, since I'm swapping out as soon as FOU is back anyway.

NQT is probably scum. At this point in the game, the wavefunctions are still mostly uncollapsed so I have very little actual confidence in this assessment, but, if pressed, he(?) would be my second vote after RGU.
I'm only the normal level of suspicious of Tiruin at the moment. If NQT is scum, however, and especially if RGU isn't, the suspicion level would go way up.
You, in contrast, I'm fairly benevolent toward. I don't currently think you're mafia. it's early yet, of course; that might have changed had things gone differently.
Tawa. Tawa's got something faintly screwy going on, but isn't really on my "probably mafia" list. Keep an eye on that guy though.
juicebox has been pretty inactive, which is often suspicious. At this point, I would probably get on board a bandwagon against him, because, *irrespective* of whether he's mafia or not, knowing whether he is would narrow down those aforementioned wavefunctions substantially. But I'm not going to throw a vote against him on my own, at the moment, when there are other people I could be investigating.
And lastly, Imic: Imic, how suspicious I am of you would depend entirely on how you respond to that message you should have received last night. If you continue to ignore it, especially now that you know I know about it, well, that would suggest to me that you already have other allegiances.

Incidentally, you know, there's a very important reason for not sharing your suspicions right away: because sharing your suspicions changes how people react, which changes how your ongoing investigation develops. Watching silently allows you to keep pruning down the possibilities without having to account for the way your own interaction will affect the entangled state.
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Tiruin

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #126 on: January 08, 2018, 01:22:55 am »

Bwuh, timezone explosion! I last woke up to seeing this post. And now more posts come forth @_@

Unvote. Personal Extension, go!

Honestly, seeing Maximum Spin's response is visually passively-aggressive themed at first. (Heh, my own words are seen as a 'word salad'. Everyone else reads my words well though) :P

And looking back at the questions he has missed, one can see an outlying idea of what they can imply. The basic purpose for communication is to convey ideas to each other; it is outside of the norm to ignore them outright, because while communicating is learned, ignorance is learned in turn, alongside finding reasons to back up why you choose to ignore them. (I still laugh at 'word salad', knowing its origins and roots, and having my first impression as if Max learned it from mental studies. :P ...and my memory of having a good argument about it with my instructor in lectures on mental disorders [and its comparison to neologisms, in a quiz]; they interchanged the answer, accidentally).

Honestly, you can just say 'incoherent' and it'll mean a lot better than throwing 'word salad' at me. But none of the questions addressed to you are incoherent in the first place.

However, there is still communication--even if the first impression isn't something particularly exact, it's also getting ideas from others. I threw in my extension for the purposes of reviewing what's going on. We only have...around 5 pages in the default forum format, so it's just 75 posts to look through.

Have a list of things about Maximum Spin, and the questions asked.
Quote from: Left is questions in numbers; Right is Maximum's posts, referring to what numbers answered
Gig {1}
Tir (Everyone) {2}
BHK {3}
Kingawsume/random G{4}
NQT {5}
juicebox {6}
NQT {7}
Silthuri {8}
Tawarochir {9} (with random G's agreement below)
Tir {10}
Tir {11}
Tawa {12}
Tir {13}
Gig {14}
1st post {3}
2nd, noting {1}, with emphasis(?)
3rd, {5}
4th {7}
5th {9}
6th (response in sarcasm?)
7th {11, unanswered}
8th {14}
9th
10th
11th
12th
The rest after the last links are easily seen in the last page.

Honestly the questions asked are in the least, innocuous, and at most, having a certain first impression that is easily pushed aside in favor of answering clearly. I see nothing wrong or indicative of any way you CAN answer the ones unanswered and have your ideas twisted against you. That's at least what worry I see in-between Maximum's words, as he is never direct with why he doesn't really answer people's questions. The unanswered ones are...pretty concise in the way the question is worded. :v

It is still fairly unclear why Max is not answering those questions, however. Many of them are merely towards 'how would you play in this scenario', where there is no right or wrong answer. Also seeing his 9th post, I'm unsure why there's a very generalized sense of answering when the answer to "How best will you use your vote in the RVS stage"...is exactly what he answered after saying 'this doesn't make sense to me'. It'd help everyone to give clarity to your reasoning, Max, as that whole process is left unsaid and unspoken.

I see some suspicion in some questions being unanswered; they can easily give way to the impression of 'this person is dodging my query' (also it may come off as rude), but I can see his response of not comprehending why the question is present in the first place with the anxiety of not having your answer be as succinct a response, to also be reasonable.

Although I am curious about many parts of his reasoning that is better off said by himself. @_@
And...err,
Quote
NQT is probably scum. At this point in the game, the wavefunctions are still mostly uncollapsed so I have very little actual confidence in this assessment, but, if pressed, he(?) would be my second vote after RGU.
I'm only the normal level of suspicious of Tiruin at the moment. If NQT is scum, however, and especially if RGU isn't, the suspicion level would go way up.
Is there any reason I'm being tied with NQT and random generic username?
Also I've abbreviated your username, randomgenericusername, to random G. :P Sorry if it's different!
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #127 on: January 08, 2018, 01:44:00 am »

Okay, if you really want me to explain in more detail, here are some examples:

Honestly, seeing Maximum Spin's response is visually passively-aggressive themed at first.
[...]
And looking back at the questions he has missed, one can see an outlying idea of what they can imply.
[...] it is outside of the norm to ignore them outright, because while communicating is learned, ignorance is learned in turn, alongside finding reasons to back up why you choose to ignore them.
[...]it'll mean a lot better than[...]
However, there is still communication--even if the first impression isn't something particularly exact, it's also getting ideas from others.
[...]2nd, noting {1}, with emphasis(?)
[...]6th (response in sarcasm?)
[...]having a certain first impression that is easily pushed aside in favor of answering clearly.
[...]I see nothing wrong or indicative of any way you CAN answer the ones unanswered
[...]I'm unsure why there's a very generalized sense of answering
[...]but I can see his response of not comprehending why the question is present in the first place with the anxiety of not having your answer be as succinct a response, to also be reasonable.
I have no idea what any of the mentioned phrases are meant to mean. I could make assumptions, but I'd rather not. Some of them are just overly elaborate and hard to parse, and others ("an outlying idea of what they can imply"? "a very generalized sense of answering"?) just seem like word salad to me. "Word salad" in this sense is a linguistic term, by the way, although I am also aware of the psychological term. Which reminds me, although I understood what "mental studies" was intended to convey *because* I knew you were talking about the psychological term, it's also an extremely odd construction in English and, without context, I don't think most people would understand it to mean psychology.
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juicebox

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #128 on: January 08, 2018, 01:48:36 am »

Secondly, I hoped you wouldn't do this Maximum.
Funnily enough, I hoped that after seeing it once, people wouldn't find the basic concept of "not answering every single question" so foundationally disturbing and confounding.

You (general) do realise that there's no rational reason why this would correlate with being mafia at all, right? And also, possibly, that transparently and openly ignoring some questions is not the same as "dodging" them? And maybe somewhere along the line, that words like "dodgy" and "shifty" have an actual meaning that this is not any of?

Wait.. So you expected an entire meta to shift to accommodate your strategy after one (unsuccessful) game? That seems a bit much to hope for if you asked me. Secondly, in most places, when you don't answer questions, people take this to imply that you're hiding something, which makes you seem suspicious to them. That's all that's going on here.


What's your read on each player that's voting for you?
juicebox has been pretty inactive, which is often suspicious. At this point, I would probably get on board a bandwagon against him, because, *irrespective* of whether he's mafia or not, knowing whether he is would narrow down those aforementioned wavefunctions substantially. But I'm not going to throw a vote against him on my own, at the moment, when there are other people I could be investigating.

What are these wavefunctions that you're talking about here? Also, I've haven't really been that inactive, especially if you consider that this game pretty much started on the weekend.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #129 on: January 08, 2018, 01:53:34 am »

What are these wavefunctions that you're talking about here?
Quantum superpositions. Possibility states. Basically, a metaphor for an evolving set of beliefs or suspicions.
Quote
Also, I've haven't really been that inactive, especially if you consider that this game pretty much started on the weekend.
Yeaaaah, you have.
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Tiruin

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #130 on: January 08, 2018, 02:03:45 am »

Randomgenericusername
Everything in Maximum's posts looks wrong to me. Like, very wrong. I don't know if it's a gut feeling or something, but I think he might either be scum or a really unhelpful townie. Since it's just day 1 and no one died night 1, can we risk misslynching? If we are going to lynch today, Maximum Spin seems like the safest choice of lynch. At least we will get more answers from his flip.
I think I might be tunneling him on accident, but there is just something wrong in the way he posts and I can feel it in my gut.
Were you aware when you wrote this, that no lethal actions were taken N0? :P

Why is Maximum Spin the 'safest' choice of lynch here? What are you comparing him to?

First of all, votecount please.
Since FoU is sick...
Have a player-made one, assuming everything is as-is and there are no double-votes or other vote manipulating actions done.
...Also I think the folks voting Maximum either forgot we're playing ON THE HAMMER SYSTEM, or just threw out brevity with voting the guy. >_>
Quote
A special hammer system is in effect:
The game will consist of 72 hour days and 48 hour nights(the time will not pass during weekends). During the day, the day may end because of a hammer(getting the majority of the game's available votes on a player will lynch that player, ending the day), or because of the deadline.[...]
And the majority is usually 1/2 of total players +1. Unless FoU is using a different system.
Source post

Actually, FoU never gave the day end time. :V Anyway I used my extension.
I've also counted Orange colored votes as trope votes. :P

And uh...while I was votecounting, the snapshot on approaching '6 votes' voting on the person (meaning my ASSUMED hammer count), was hit when kingawsume voted :x
I mean 11 divided by two is 5.5, so it would be 7--still, the hammer would've fallen by BHK's post, right after. :X

The UPDATED votecount, assuming until now that the posts are as is, is as follows.

PPE x2.
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juicebox

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #131 on: January 08, 2018, 02:25:52 am »

What are these wavefunctions that you're talking about here?
Quantum superpositions. Possibility states. Basically, a metaphor for an evolving set of beliefs or suspicions.


So in that case this:
irrespective of whether he's mafia or not, knowing whether he is would narrow down those aforementioned wavefunctions substantially.
could apply to literally anybody here then, since knowing anyone's alignment would significantly narrow down the wavefunctions.


sidenote: I'm
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juicebox

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #132 on: January 08, 2018, 02:27:36 am »

EBWOP: I hit reply instead of preview. Anyway, what I was going to say is that I'm starting to find nested quotes to be as annoying as nested loops.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #133 on: January 08, 2018, 02:38:59 am »

could apply to literally anybody here then, since knowing anyone's alignment would significantly narrow down the wavefunctions.
I mean, it depends on how you define "significantly", but, in my opinion, the wavefunctions I was working on would be pruned much more effectively by some lynchings than others, and, because of your relative inactivity, you're one of them. I realise that's not what you want, heh. But finding out that you are mafia would tell me a lot more about the other mafia members than finding out that, say, Imic or Tawa was.
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Imic

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Re: Fallacy's BYOR 3(11/11): Day 1: Nobody Dead
« Reply #134 on: January 08, 2018, 04:44:52 am »

Imic
notquitethere I have several reasons to be suspicioud of him, but I don't want to say any of them. I want to see what he thinks and what he says, but I don't think I'll get up to anything until tommorrow
Juicebox I haven't played mafia on the forum much, although I've done it a lot in real life, my playstile is usually to watch in the corner for signs of lying when questioned, and try to piece things together from that. I'm going to see now if that works on a forum.
1. Why keep those suspicions to yourself? If your suspicions are well founded, then what's the disadvantage of saying them now?
2. Instead of being passive and waiting for others to ask me questions, why not take the initiative? You can ask me questions directly. If I'm scum, then this would only help your case. Either I would answer your questions and potentially reveal more lies, or I would refuse to answer them, which would be suspicious in itself. What's the downside?

What's your opinion of Maximum Spin?

I am suspicious of Notquitethere, because during the night stage, I recieved a message saying that a cultist was whispering innmy ear, asking me to join. I do not intend to join any such institution, and I have not replied, but notquitethere was the first person to acknowledge me, by asking what I wanted to do differently this time around. I'm suspicous if him because of the way he said that. I can also successfully say that you are not the cult finder, since you voted to lynch me, when you could have reccruited me properly tonight if I survived.
Now I have RL stuff to do.
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