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Author Topic: Centaur anatomy  (Read 6338 times)

Greiger

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2017, 08:18:56 pm »

Sounds like a reasonable argument to put the vast majority of the organs in the horse body to balance out the weight and leave the humanoid torso mostly empty to me.  Though that weight probably wouldn't make up enough of the difference alone since you'd still need a significant amount of structural bone and functional muscle mass in the humanoid torso.  Perhaps if the humanoid part's center of mass was behind the front legs? 

EDIT: Or what Hugo said.  Welcome to Dwarf Fortress, where people debate the feasibility of centaur anatomy. 

EDIT2: A quadruped is inherently more stable than a biped and that may make enough difference.  The front of a car is typically much heavier than the back of a car after all, and as long as that weight is somewhere between all the wheels it does not tip over without some outside force acting upon it.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 08:22:35 pm by Greiger »
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IT 000

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2017, 11:01:08 pm »

It would make sense for the heart and lungs to be closer to the brain. If this wasn't necessary we would see animals with their heart in their tails. I would probably put them in the 'gut' of the human part and have the ribs extend there as well. Just so that it is in a nice core location. The digestive track would wind all the way through but God knows how or what they would eat. Grass? Would the human part just bend over like a horses head? Are they omnivorous? Then why have a digestive track as long as a horse?

My head hurts. Just put in saytrs instead.
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se05239

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2017, 02:17:20 am »

It would make sense for the heart and lungs to be closer to the brain. If this wasn't necessary we would see animals with their heart in their tails. I would probably put them in the 'gut' of the human part and have the ribs extend there as well. Just so that it is in a nice core location.

Problem lies in the fact that a Centaur is far bigger than a man in sheer size. A human sized heart and a pair of lungs ain't gonna be able to supplement the entire body with proper blood/oxygen circulation.
They'd need to have a pretty massive set of vital organs to do that and a human torso ain't gonna cut it. They'd need to be inside the horse part of their body.
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Greiger

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2017, 04:25:56 am »

Thinking about that bit, I didn't major in anatomy (though I really wish I did, I find that far more interesting than computers these days) would multiple hearts and/or sets of lungs be able to properly function together in a larger animal?  A human brain and torso added onto about 90% of a horse may be too much for a horse's organs to handle properly as well.  I know smaller critters can rock multiple hearts, but how feasible would it be for a large centaur to have two (non redundant) sets of vital organs that just work together to supply the whole animal?  I'd think timing might be a problem when you get to creatures large enough to have nerve signal delays measured above microseconds.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2017, 09:20:46 am »

The reason smaller creatures like insects can have multiple hearts is because they don't have a very efficient circulatory system to begin with.  They are basically just sacks full of blood and the heart is basically a pulsating muscle that "stirs" the blood so that oxygen gets around the body.  For an insect, having more hearts to stir the blood could be helpful.  That's very different from a vertebrate circulatory system, where the heart forces the blood at high speeds through closed vessels.  For a vertebrate to have multiple hearts they would have to be in sync with each other to keep the blood moving quickly.  There isn't really much point when a stronger single heart would work just as well and give the body fewer points of failure.

I think if a centaur was a natural creature (and not a magically fused human and horse) there wouldn't be any reason for it to have redundant organs - giraffes have a head that is far higher above their heart and stomach than a centaur's would be (assuming the heart was in the lower body), but they don't need redundant organs (although they do have an unusually large heart), so why would a centaur need them?

Alternatively, the heart could be in the upper torso, making it easier to pump blood to the head.  The torso could be filled up with a larger heart and lungs that extend to where a human's stomach would be, and the stomach/intestines could be in the "horse" part.

Also worth mentioning: Horses actually have an extra circulatory "assist" in their feet, called a "frog" - as the horse runs it squeezes the blood out of its legs and helps it to move around.  (We sort of have a similar thing, actually, which is why it is more uncomfortable to stand in place for long periods of time than it is to walk).  This has nothing to do with the size though; it is to help horses and humans run for long distances.

I would also guess from its body plan that it was either a predator or a browser, possibly both, but not a grazer.  It would be hard for a centaur to bend down far enough to eat grass, but hands are nice for picking fruits or killing things.  Hooves are good for running and since they can use weapons they don't need claws.

IT 000

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2017, 09:31:17 am »

Quote
Problem lies in the fact that a Centaur is far bigger than a man in sheer size. A human sized heart and a pair of lungs ain't gonna be able to supplement the entire body with proper blood/oxygen circulation.
They'd need to have a pretty massive set of vital organs to do that and a human torso ain't gonna cut it. They'd need to be inside the horse part of their body.

Not an expert, but you've convinced me. I suppose one should wonder whether the organs would be located where horse organs are located or not. But DF isn't that specific.

Quote
Multiple hearts
If multiple hearts/lungs or other organs were needed we would see this exhibited in larger creatures. Neither Horses nor blue whales have more than one heart. Notably Giraffes only have one heart as well, so I do not feel that Centaurs should have multiple hearts.
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GLaDOSauR

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2017, 12:53:20 pm »

I don't get that.  Humans can stand upright on 2 legs, I don't see why adding a horse-behind would cause them to fall forward.

Humans can stand upright on two legs because humans are balanced.  If you replace the head of a horse with a human torso along the lines of depictions of centaurs we end up falling forward because the weight *of* the front part is added onto that of the front parts of the horse (effectively) which are already balanced against that of the back parts.

Or think of both sets of legs as weights in a scales.  The legs themselves are already balanced against each-other because of bilateral symmetry (hence it's popularity in nature), but if we have four legs we have to balance the back legs against the front legs.  Add a centaur torso however and a whole load of extra weight is now added onto the front legs, tipping the scales so they are unbalanced in a forward heavy manner. 

This is why, despite all the advantages of having better vision, all the quadrapeds all have heads which angle forward (including horses).  They also have an downwards arch in their back, which allows their bottoms to balance out their heads near enough, preventing the problem I described.  Centaurs on the other hand have a serious balance problem because their bottoms are not large enough to balance out their human torso.

Now all I can picture is centaurs with abnormally large buttocks.  Someone go mspaint that.
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GLaDOSauR

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2017, 12:55:58 pm »

It would make sense for the heart and lungs to be closer to the brain. If this wasn't necessary we would see animals with their heart in their tails. I would probably put them in the 'gut' of the human part and have the ribs extend there as well. Just so that it is in a nice core location. The digestive track would wind all the way through but God knows how or what they would eat. Grass? Would the human part just bend over like a horses head? Are they omnivorous? Then why have a digestive track as long as a horse?

My head hurts. Just put in saytrs instead.

Maybe the horse part has a giant mouth running longwise all the way down the torse, and when it wants to eat grass it just sorta squats down.

That would be sorta creepy....
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Nil Athelion

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2017, 10:30:02 pm »

Thinking about that bit, I didn't major in anatomy (though I really wish I did, I find that far more interesting than computers these days) would multiple hearts and/or sets of lungs be able to properly function together in a larger animal?
I'm doing the medical thing right now, and as far as I know there's no reason why they would not be able to work together.  Might be horribly inefficient, and evolutionary implausible, but... that's normal.

The only potential problem is that venous return has a set direction due to the one-way valves, so you might have one heart getting more blood than the other, depending on where blood winds up going. 

One alternative is that instead of parallel hearts, you use sequential hearts.  We already kind of have this in our four chamber hearts (one part pumps from body to lungs, one part pumps from lungs to body), but you could extend that with another heart that pumps to the lung heart that pumps to the body heart.


I actually currently agree with DF's idea that the humanoid torso is entirely filled with heart and lungs, while the rest of the viscera is in the horse body.  Snaking a trachea all the way down into the horse body seems like a pain.  I'd put the heart there too, of course, since there's a second rib cage to protect it.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2017, 08:54:24 am »

I imagine if you're born unbalanced, you learn how to balance it. Like at some point in the very early years of your life you crawled

so saying "There is just 60ish lbs more on the front it will fall over" makes zero sense. Maybe if it was a machine but even then the engineer can simply program "How about you lower the center of gravity at the back and place the front legs out a bit more"

Until trail and error it will balance (much like a child learning to walk and balance)

There are also people that do insane tricks with bikes, you just learn how to balance.

The problem is that the centaur has to move and move fast or there really is no point in being a centaur at all. 

If you never move then you can get by fine, the problem is that moving requires you put the whole weight of your body on the front legs, lift your back legs off the ground, put them back onto the ground in front of where you were, lift your front legs off the ground and put them down again.  If a creature is front-heavy we end up with a situation where it finds it cannot place it's back legs back on the ground and hence it ends up bowling over.  It cannot learn to do anything except try to shuffle forward using only it's front legs, dragging it's useless back legs along with it. 

The solution to the centaur problem is to ensure that nothing aside from the brain and mouth, the muscles needed to operate the above and some bones are found in the horse part.  Have a very long oesophagus and wind pipe that goes into a stomach/lungs that are in the center of the horse part; the reason is that we want to increase the weight of the centre considerably compared to either the back or front parts.  Place the creatures heart on the back of the horse part, just below the human part so that we can pump blood to the centaur's brain, this does result in a major weakspot which everyone who does not like centaurs will exploit; the blood must be pumped through massive arteries into the human part or else that large human-sized brain will not function, hence if anyone cuts the area at the back where the human and horse part joins we have a dead centaur.

The reason smaller creatures like insects can have multiple hearts is because they don't have a very efficient circulatory system to begin with.  They are basically just sacks full of blood and the heart is basically a pulsating muscle that "stirs" the blood so that oxygen gets around the body.  For an insect, having more hearts to stir the blood could be helpful.  That's very different from a vertebrate circulatory system, where the heart forces the blood at high speeds through closed vessels.  For a vertebrate to have multiple hearts they would have to be in sync with each other to keep the blood moving quickly.  There isn't really much point when a stronger single heart would work just as well and give the body fewer points of failure.

I think if a centaur was a natural creature (and not a magically fused human and horse) there wouldn't be any reason for it to have redundant organs - giraffes have a head that is far higher above their heart and stomach than a centaur's would be (assuming the heart was in the lower body), but they don't need redundant organs (although they do have an unusually large heart), so why would a centaur need them?

Alternatively, the heart could be in the upper torso, making it easier to pump blood to the head.  The torso could be filled up with a larger heart and lungs that extend to where a human's stomach would be, and the stomach/intestines could be in the "horse" part.

Also worth mentioning: Horses actually have an extra circulatory "assist" in their feet, called a "frog" - as the horse runs it squeezes the blood out of its legs and helps it to move around.  (We sort of have a similar thing, actually, which is why it is more uncomfortable to stand in place for long periods of time than it is to walk).  This has nothing to do with the size though; it is to help horses and humans run for long distances.

I would also guess from its body plan that it was either a predator or a browser, possibly both, but not a grazer.  It would be hard for a centaur to bend down far enough to eat grass, but hands are nice for picking fruits or killing things.  Hooves are good for running and since they can use weapons they don't need claws.

Keeping multiple hearts in sync with each-other is easy because vertebrate hearts are directly controlled by the brain. 

The fact that creature's that have been around for millions of years fail to evolve organs that were not present in their ancestors even though they would greatly benefit from doing so and are instead forced to stretch their original body plan to breaking point is one of the reasons why Darwinism is rubbish.  The original simple creatures all those millions of years ago have to have developed radically new body parts in order to end up with all the complexity that we see, but for some strange reason this ability stops manifesting at all in later creatures so all we see is the endless recycling of what we have been working with for hundreds of millions of years in many cases.  All those hundreds of millions of years and endless recycling is all we see, but  a long time ago and what we see is the emergence of a huge number of new systems in a few million years. 

In any case if I was to go about making a centaur, a giraffe is actually a good starting point.  We can make the humanoid torso out of the giraffe's elongated neck and make two more limbs out of the collar bones, supposedly limbs were originally evolved from ribs anyway.  This does lead to the add situation where the humanoid torso has no ribs but instead neck vertebrae, but we can simply repurpose the size and shape of those so the function works out well, especially since there are no internal organs that need protecting. 
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Hugo_The_Dwarf

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2017, 03:41:03 pm »

I imagine if you're born unbalanced, you learn how to balance it. Like at some point in the very early years of your life you crawled

so saying "There is just 60ish lbs more on the front it will fall over" makes zero sense. Maybe if it was a machine but even then the engineer can simply program "How about you lower the center of gravity at the back and place the front legs out a bit more"

Until trail and error it will balance (much like a child learning to walk and balance)

There are also people that do insane tricks with bikes, you just learn how to balance.

The problem is that the centaur has to move and move fast or there really is no point in being a centaur at all. 

If you never move then you can get by fine, the problem is that moving requires you put the whole weight of your body on the front legs, lift your back legs off the ground, put them back onto the ground in front of where you were, lift your front legs off the ground and put them down again.  If a creature is front-heavy we end up with a situation where it finds it cannot place it's back legs back on the ground and hence it ends up bowling over.  It cannot learn to do anything except try to shuffle forward using only it's front legs, dragging it's useless back legs along with it. 

Sorry what? You are not arguing your point very well, you're telling me that a living creature is not able to learn how to adjust its body weight around to help balance itself out? Say for running if the weight was a huge deal wouldn't the centaur simply... idk... lean the human body back to get that speed started, then can lean forward to allow that frontal weight to help it carry the gallop further?

And we're both assuming that the centaur is basically a cut of normal human stock mixed with normal horse stock. If anything they could be incredibly ripped, and the horse part being that of a work horse or draft horse, Which having a heavier and stronger horse portion would more than enough make up for even a muscular humanoid attachment.

And about having something that disproportionate what about people and even animals that lose a limb? Everything learns to cope with having an imbalance and they counter it. I've never seen someone with a missing leg go "Oh lord, I can never keep myself upright now that my leg is gone" until the day they die. They can learn to adapt and balance without both legs, and hop around if need be. Now that naturally hinders speed (unless outfitted with a prosthesis but animals and DF doesn't have that liberty)

I honestly think you didn't really read my post completely, and process it. Just saw "balance" and went pfft that's all I need.


The solution to the centaur problem is to ensure that nothing aside from the brain and mouth, the muscles needed to operate the above and some bones are found in the horse part.  Have a very long oesophagus and wind pipe that goes into a stomach/lungs that are in the center of the horse part; the reason is that we want to increase the weight of the centre considerably compared to either the back or front parts.  Place the creatures heart on the back of the horse part, just below the human part so that we can pump blood to the centaur's brain, this does result in a major weakspot which everyone who does not like centaurs will exploit; the blood must be pumped through massive arteries into the human part or else that large human-sized brain will not function, hence if anyone cuts the area at the back where the human and horse part joins we have a dead centaur.

Now this makes sense, and I can agree with it. However the challenge now is the windpipe/esophagus, As in most vertebrates this is predominately on the very front of the neck, until it reaches the collarbone/rib cage. Even the stomach is at the very end/bottom of the rib cage, which is 'assuming' this was to ensure other tissues didn't expand/contract to pinch/close this important transport of consumption and air (spit balling with no research as to why this is the case the majority of the time).

We could assume that everything important follows the spine (in the human bit) like major arteries, and esophagus. Potentially the connection point of human and horse has a pelvic/tailbone like structure to help prevent any bending in that area so the tube can progress safely to the lungs and stomach without too much trouble if the human part jackknifed in a direction.

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scourge728

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2017, 09:08:48 pm »

I feel the need to clarify that the molemarian body plan is HAND_FOOT_CENTAUR_NECK

Hugo_The_Dwarf

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2017, 09:21:20 pm »

I feel the need to clarify that the molemarian body plan is HAND_FOOT_CENTAUR_NECK

I feel that one is cheaping out by just making the lowerbody twice the size of the upper (aka mashing both "lowerbodies" into 1)

to me visually it looks more like
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
only if the lower body was larger.

but if OP wanted to use HAND_FOOT_CENTAUR_NECK then is the question more or less "where should the organs go?"
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scourge728

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2017, 10:52:11 pm »

What is that thing

Also, I feel like this thread is a pretty good explanation for why nature tends not to select for centuar types in the first place

IndigoFenix

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Re: Centaur anatomy
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2017, 02:54:28 am »

What is that thing

Also, I feel like this thread is a pretty good explanation for why nature tends not to select for centuar types in the first place

Only because vertebrates didn't start with a 6-limbed body plan.  Extra limbs have their pluses (better specialization) and minuses (more energy); a centaur is no less realistic from an objective standpoint than many creatures that actually do exist.

I would assume that a centaur would have evolved from the same six-limbed vertebrate line that includes dragons and griffins.

Praying mantises rock the four legs, two arms design pretty well.
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