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[Fleeting Frames]

Then it has changed since you last checked: Crafting Statistics 42.06. Now both item and material contribute to quality, though this is very little once the dwarf is trained.

Of course, that was carpentry.

Granted, in looking at few saves I have, I can find no preferences for book binding and grand total of 1 preference for scroll rollers (a former-child immigrant in the 1500 pop megafortress).

[Clément]

The question was about input items. I don't think that thread has the answer. For carpentry the question would be: would a preference for logs (if it was possible) improve quality of carpentry/woodcrafting jobs?

[Fleeting Frames]

Ah, good catch & my bad; don't know then.

[Brightgalrs]

(A quicker, hackier way, is to see if bookbinding jobs add to raw numbers of the creativity attribute - hacky because it is based on the unproven assumption that jobs/tasks that add points to an attribute are carried out better with higher levels of said attribute.)

Oh boy... do I have some bad news for you. That's exactly how I've been testing it. 

[Clément]

I made a mistake. Papermaker should not have parchment, it is made by tanners.

As for bookbinder, should they have some material preferences? Paper/parchments material (sheets or quires) are always involved in their work. Book bindings and scroll rollers can be made from a large variety of materials, is it important too? Does thread material has any influence for book making?

[feelotraveller]

(A quicker, hackier way, is to see if bookbinding jobs add to raw numbers of the creativity attribute - hacky because it is based on the unproven assumption that jobs/tasks that add points to an attribute are carried out better with higher levels of said attribute.)

Oh boy... do I have some bad news for you. That's exactly how I've been testing it. 

That's okay.     Most of the relevant attributes as listed on the wiki have been found using that method.  We'll have to be happy with that barring other tests.

As for bookbinder, should they have some material preferences? Paper/parchments material (sheets or quires) are always involved in their work. Book bindings and scroll rollers can be made from a large variety of materials, is it important too? Does thread material has any influence for book making?

Right, down the rabbit hole of roles (my dear Alice).

No. Off the top of my head these influences are minimal, if they exist at all.  I suggest not including them.  Part of the problem is that even if they have a small/minimal influence their inclusion in the role 'waters down' the effect of the major determinants (Quires, Scrolls, skill level).

The more exacting answer is to test for their influence, and its magnitude.  Beware the depth of the rabbit hole!  (E.g., 'extraneous' variables such as focus, rng, personality.)

[Clément]

You are right and with material preferences it is too easy to match a material you cannot actually provide. If a stone mason likes stone but it is a stone you don't actually have, it is completely useless.

I created the pull request here: https://github.com/Dwarf-Therapist/Dwarf-Therapist/pull/176.

[Clément]

New version released: 41.1.1

Small fixes and new roles for papermaker and bookbinder.

Changelog:

• added papermaker and bookbinder roles
• made race_name invokable from scripts
• fixed weapon columns
• fixed a crash when quitting on macOS.
• fixed a crash when reading invalid language data from DF

Windows builds are also available on DFFD (win32, win64).

[DerMeister]

Why, if I embark with hungry heads, Dwarf The Rapist put them to sapients?

[Clément]

What are hungry heads? You need to give more details, like how to reproduce your issue and what is expected.

Edit: They are pests. I've never paid attention to them. So you mean you add them as animals in the embark screen, and DT show them in the citizen view?

They are missing the trainable token, so they are not added to the animal tab and stay in the default citizen one.

Did you mod the game to be able to embark with them? In which unit tab does the game display them?

[DerMeister]

What are hungry heads? You need to give more details, like how to reproduce your issue and what is expected.

Edit: They are pests. I've never paid attention to them. So you mean you add them as animals in the embark screen, and DT show them in the citizen view?

They are missing the trainable token, so they are not added to the animal tab and stay in the default citizen one.

Did you mod the game to be able to embark with them? In which unit tab does the game display them?

Pests? I remake them into cats analogue.

A lot of pets are not trainable. But they shown as animals.

I mod the game, but more than one change. Hungry heads ingame are normal livestock and shown as livestock.

[Clément]

I had to check, "trainable" in DT actually means TRAINABLE_HUNTING or TRAINABLE_WAR or PET or PET_EXOTIC.

So the current definition of an "animal" in DT is: (not CAN_LEARN) and (TRAINABLE_HUNTING or TRAINABLE_WAR or PET or PET_EXOTIC).

How did you modify them? Are they tamed? Maybe I could add a check for the "tame" flag.

If you want to check the "tame" flag in dfhack, select the unit in v mode or the u unit list, and use ":lua !dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit().flags1.tame" in dfhack console.

[PatrikLundell]

DerMeister is hacking around trying to play goblins with changes all over the place and then asks questions about what happens in his particular world, as well as demanding that others makes scripts and plugins for his specific uses. Apparently he's got no programming knowledge (or knowledge of what's reasonably possible to hack, based on some comments), so all his modding is presumably raw hacking.
Note that goblins gain animals based on them being "evil" rather than the standard method used for the dorf  and humie races (how are elven tamed exotic animals tagged? Are all of them PET_EXOTIC?), which means that the flags DT checks for probably aren't set. When in the weirdo mod territory, Kobolds have poisonous non mammals as pets, but I don't know whether there's a restriction to PET_EXOTIC or not.

Checking for "tame" would make sense, though (What happens currently if a tamed animal reverts to wild? Is its civ allegiance removed?).

While Hungry Heads may well be considered "pests" they're still animals as opposed to vermin in DF terms.

[Clément]

"Pests" is what the wiki is calling them. But it is apparently nothing special, I was confusing it with vermin.

So the definition of an animal depends on the player civilization. That would make supporting mods more difficult. Is it something that can be found in raws? or is it hard-coded? Is it because of the USE_CAVE_ANIMALS, USE_EVIL_ANIMALS, ... tokens? Wiki says they still need a PET token or similar if I understand correctly.

DT may be missing checks for PACK_ANIMAL, WAGON_PULLER, MOUNT, MOUNT_EXOTIC (but I guess they usually imply one of the other tokens).

What does "evil" means for goblin animals? The hungry heads don't have the EVIL token (except if DerMeister added it).


By adding:

Code: [Select]

[ANIMAL]
[ANIMAL_CLASS:POISONOUS]
[ANIMAL_FORBIDDEN_CLASS:MAMMAL]
[ANIMAL_NEVER_MOUNT]
[ANIMAL_NEVER_WAGON_PULLER]
[ANIMAL_NEVER_PACK_ANIMAL]
[ANIMAL_ALWAYS_PET]
[ANIMAL_ALWAYS_SIEGE]
[ANIMAL_ALWAYS_PRESENT]
to [ENTITY:MOUNTAIN] (based on kobold animals but with ANIMAL_ALWAYS_PRESENT added), I was able to embark with cave floaters. Like hungry heads, they are lacking pet tags and DT fails to sort them. This is one way to reproduce DerMeister issue.

I checked with dfhack the cave floaters are tame and their training_level is Domesticated.

Is there any knowledge about how exactly the game fills the pets/livestock unit list screen? If I find the time I could try to read the assembly code.

[PatrikLundell]

I don't know how DF does it, but as far as I know all fortress members are placed in one of the Units, Animals, or Dead tabs (the names may be off, and the Dead one also adds dead non fortress members).

I'd expect a unit to show up in either of the Units or Animals tabs if it belongs to the fortress and isn't dead (ghosts are not dead in this regard, they're just not alive).
Beyond that, I expect units to end up in the Animals tab if they're marked as Trained at any level above wild. Note that this causes Gremlins to end up on the Animal tab (as well as on the animals stock screen, where they can be marked for butchering).
However, I (and I'd expect others who engage in training sapients) definitely prefer DT to allow you to control your intelligent "pets" as normal citizens, which means that intelligence would override training.
Caged creatures that are not tamed (i.e. fully wild, which includes "normal" sapients such as gobbos) show up on the Others unit tab and move after training, but trainable animals show up on the Animals stock screen (which is reasonable, as that's where you order them to be trained if you don't do that directly on the unit itself [and I don't think you can reach that option if it's caged]). I'd expect chained animals to behave the same as caged, but I rarely use chains. I don't think there are any further options beyond cages and chains to have wild animals under control, and I don't know how they're displayed while in transit between one cage/chain and another (a period during which they can potentially break free).

Much guesswork above...

Edit:
I think the tags controlling HOW creatures can become tame are irrelevant to how DF treats them once they are tamed (to some level).