Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[feelotraveller]

Also I don't know what to do with the labor optimizer, does it still make sense? I don't use it myself, and it seems like someone who would want automatic labors should just use the new system.

I don't use it either.  I thought that you are able to customise the automation (optimisation plans).  Does steam DF have that possibility?  Beyond that how much effort would it be to keep it?

[Clément]

I thought that you are able to customise the automation (optimisation plans).  Does steam DF have that possibility?

It is different. If I understood correctly, DF chooses the best available dwarf (according to skill) at the time the job is processed. The optimizer chooses the best dwarves (according to role ratings) globally to fill labors according the plan. DF does not need a plan because the job pool will determine how many dwarves are needed. But the "available dwarf" part may be the main drawback of this method from what I have read around, since the game won't wait even a little for a much better dwarf to become available. Other than that, I think the main difference is "skill vs roles".

Beyond that how much effort would it be to keep it?

Right now, very little. On the long term, it is a question I need to ask for a lot of features. I am still unsure of where DT is going.

Dwarf Therapist was first created for assigning labors. But, in my opinion, this is now obsolete. Today, I would rather define DT as an overview for your units (citizens/visitors/livestock) helping you finding the right one for an arbitrary purpose, and occasionally apply the change once you found it. "occasionally" because right now what you can change is very limited (labors, squads, livestock flags). Jobs may not only be decided through labors but also assignment to workshops, building occupations, noble positions, ... (I'm also thinking of Putnam who said that medical labors should be replaced with assignment to an hospital, I can imagine occupations becoming more important in the future)

There is also the technical side. The way DT interacts with DF is very messy and does not allow for complex changes to the game data. This needs to be replaced so DT can evolve.

Together this leads to a lot of changes and it is a bit overwhelming. It is also a good occasion for rethinking DT purpose, and try cleaning some cruft (I'm also considering restarting from scratch).

Back to the initial question, my motivation for working on features I may throw away just after is not very high.

In the case of the labor optimizer, it is also a feature that feels a lot like an addon, it does not really fit with the rest. If it was not for its use of role ratings, I'd say it would be better as its own DFHack plugin.

[Putnam]

Dwarf Therapist was first created for assigning labors. But, in my opinion, this is now obsolete.

I may personally agree with you but many people absolutely do not and i strongly recommend keeping things approximately as they are.

Re-enabling work details is a bit of a problem, yeah, not sure how I didn't consider that. Personally I'd recommend just having a button that syncs up with the external flag and allows you to turn it on/off.

[Clément]

Personally I'd recommend just having a button that syncs up with the external flag and allows you to turn it on/off.

That's exactly what I'm doing right now. But I would advise any DFHack user to also add a startup script that set "df.global.game.external_flag = 1", so you don't lose your labor settings if you forgot to start Dwarf Therapist.

That's only a temporary workaround (I hope not the kind of temporary that become permanent), until a proper work detail support can be done. There is nothing you can do with labors that cannot be done with work details.

[Putnam]

Yeah, the main use case I had in mind when I suggested the external flag was more intrusive stuff like labormanager which is wanting to constantly change things around on a very granular level.

[Samthere]

Also I don't know what to do with the labor optimizer, does it still make sense? I don't use it myself, and it seems like someone who would want automatic labors should just use the new system.

I haven't played for years, but man the new work detail system does nothing for me. Well, that's a slight exaggeration. After a decent amount of work setting up a bunch of work details for every task, and fiddling with it to get icons (replacing the numerals) to make sense, it lets me sort and assign an individual labour. It's so clunky though. At the moment it takes me hours to hop back and forth between menus, check skill levels and then other skills for that same dwarf, and make decisions about total allocations.

Because of my long hiatus, I don't know if I used the optimiser back pre-2014, but it sounds like something that would take some of the micromanagement weight off when I wanted it!

[Putnam]

Yes, you will find that a pair of scissors often makes a poor hammer. The work details system is doing nothing for you because you're trying to use it in a way that it was not designed to be used. On top of that, there is literally no reason to assign a work detail to every labor. None, at all. That level of granularity is simply not necessary.

[Clément]

I added a pre-release build for testing labor assignments.

The "Disable work details" state is not saved by the game. You need to reconnect DT after restarting the game in order to restore it.

I am not sure I am doing this right. It feels like I am fighting against both DT and DF. Dwarf Therapist is not designed to make labor assignment optional. Currently, you can get into inconsistent state where you cannot edit labors but there are labor changes pending.

Another way could be to only change external_flag on connection and when committing changes. Labor would always be editable and "Disable work details" could be automatically added to pending changes when a labor is toggled. But how to re-enable work details? I still need to add an action somewhere.

Also I don't know what to do with the labor optimizer, does it still make sense? I don't use it myself, and it seems like someone who would want automatic labors should just use the new system.

I did not get any feedback on this build. I made a new one. It has a few fixes and better disabling of labors.

[el Indio]

I added a pre-release build for testing labor assignments.

The "Disable work details" state is not saved by the game. You need to reconnect DT after restarting the game in order to restore it.

I am not sure I am doing this right. It feels like I am fighting against both DT and DF. Dwarf Therapist is not designed to make labor assignment optional. Currently, you can get into inconsistent state where you cannot edit labors but there are labor changes pending.

Another way could be to only change external_flag on connection and when committing changes. Labor would always be editable and "Disable work details" could be automatically added to pending changes when a labor is toggled. But how to re-enable work details? I still need to add an action somewhere.

Also I don't know what to do with the labor optimizer, does it still make sense? I don't use it myself, and it seems like someone who would want automatic labors should just use the new system.

I did not get any feedback on this build. I made a new one. It has a few fixes and better disabling of labors.

I've only been using dwarf therapist to get an overview of the dwarfs, and to assign them to squads. 

Using DT to enable only a couple of weapon/armour smiths is easier than setting up a custom work detail, but if these changes only take effect whilst DT is connected I will just take the extra time to set up custom work details.

[Clément]

Using DT to enable only a couple of weapon/armour smiths is easier than setting up a custom work detail, but if these changes only take effect whilst DT is connected I will just take the extra time to set up custom work details.

You cannot mix labors and work details. If you disable work details for assigning your weapon/armour smiths, you will have to set all other labors manually. What you may want is a DT-like interface for setting up your work details. At least that's what I think I want.

I've been thinking more about how external_flag is managed, and I saw a few more issues. DT setting it automatically on connecting may mess up with future DFHack plugins that would require it. And since I cannot make a good implementation for it, I think I will only leave the manual changes and recommend a DFHack script for setting it on startup for users who need it, it will be simpler and more reliable. And then I can move on to more interesting stuff.

[el Indio]

You cannot mix labors and work details. If you disable work details for assigning your weapon/armour smiths, you will have to set all other labors manually. What you may want is a DT-like interface for setting up your work details. At least that's what I think I want.

I've been thinking more about how external_flag is managed, and I saw a few more issues. DT setting it automatically on connecting may mess up with future DFHack plugins that would require it. And since I cannot make a good implementation for it, I think I will only leave the manual changes and recommend a DFHack script for setting it on startup for users who need it, it will be simpler and more reliable. And then I can move on to more interesting stuff.

I haven't actually done it that way, but theoretically it is easier with DT.  DT was essential for years but if it isn't compatible with the work details I will just adjust the way I play.  Having every dwarf in the fort dabbling in every single skill isn't ideal, but ultimately I just want to see what the dwarfs get up to, and setting up a work detail for smithing so I don't waste valuable metals isn't much hassle.

Using DT to assign dwarfs to squads still makes the program essential for me anyway, too bad equipping them and scheduling them can't be done from a DT-like interface.

[Schmaven]

I usually try to avoid assigning dwarves who are likely to go berserk to military squads.  That, and veing able to rank order dwarves by skill levels are indredibly helpful.

[dr33mz33]

will you add support for 50.57 anytime soon? Still an essential tool! Thank you so much

[lethosor]

will you add support for 0.57 anytime soon? Still an essential tool! Thank you so much

Assuming you mean 50.07, there were some layouts merged earlier today: https://github.com/Dwarf-Therapist/Dwarf-Therapist/pull/285

[dr33mz33]

Edited. Cheers.