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Author Topic: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1965 - Final Design Phase)  (Read 83404 times)

Madman198237

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Revision Phase)
« Reply #900 on: June 14, 2019, 10:38:08 pm »

V1 uses fewer components (no unnecessary STABIL-ICE cooling) and generally aims to be substantially smaller. Size carries a cost of its own---more plating required to cover the thing in armor, etc.

V1 also doesn't bother mentioning a Datalink. The Datalink is a cable intended to carry CAT data---FAR more data than this thing could ever need. In addition, these are meant to be light items scattered across a battlefield, why on earth are we going to run Datalink cable (a very heavy bundle of wires) out to them?


Anyway: To my point of view, size and complexity are big enemies of this project. We're trying to deploy many small autonomous turrets. You're right, V1 should be sure to hit infantry because it's such a small and hopefully common turret that infantry will be something it can and should deal with, and I'll mention that. I have been assuming Ravenmind can find infantry, but I realized that I should ensure that that is a correct assumption.
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m1895

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Revision Phase)
« Reply #901 on: June 14, 2019, 11:12:53 pm »

You kinda just removed Madmans entire last proposal and vote there Flabort
I swear I quoted TricMagic's last post and just added in my vote. Sorry.

RAILS... even V2, is an anti-air weapon. It's designed to defeat Aratam's already inferior air force. The only thing of theirs that we have to worry about that RAILS will counter is the napalm spreading missiles, which, if we're more aggressive, we won't have to worry about as we can take out the emplacements or aircraft carrying them before they can be fired.

I just reread it while writing this up, and it can indeed take out ground targets as well.
No, you've convinced me. We do need to be able to hold the ground we take, and making a minefield out of laser guns that can blast away tanks and airplanes is a fantastic idea.
Quote from: Votebox
RIP-AT: (1) NUKE9.13
ME-LDT-64 'RAILS': (3) Madman, Failbird, m1895
V2 ME-LDT-64 'RAILS': (2) TricMagic, Flabort
ME-ODS-64 'KILLSAT': (0)

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flabort

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Revision Phase)
« Reply #902 on: June 14, 2019, 11:23:00 pm »

The STABIL-ICE cooling should allow for higher powered shots, or longer sustained fire, which should be sufficient to take out all manner of armor or high speed aircraft. However, I will concede that this is an upkeep cost, as STABIL-ICE shouldn't be used on something that we don't intend to maintain.

The Datalink port should mostly go unused, but I think it's better to have it to update IFF recognition software if needed - I will go further and say that this programming should be able to propagate, however.

Quote from: ME-LDT-64 'RAILS' Revision 3
(with credit to TricMagic for versions 1 and 2)
ME-LDT-64 'Ravenmind Area Interdiction Laser System' (RAILS)
The new Ravenmind computer is quite an achievement. It is, however, mounted to quite the expensive chassis as of now. Enter the RAILS system, which makes use of the Ravenmind's target acquisition, tracking, and communications capability to provide unmatched tactical coordination and analysis, as a cheaply deployable territory control weapons system.

An Optical CLAW as seen in the Firestorm sitting slightly above the top of itself, RAILS contains all the sensors a Ravenmind needs to identify hostile airborne or groundside targets, the radio package to send that data to every other RAILS unit in the area as well as other Ravenminds all the way back to an ORACLE Node, a recyclable Magmagel Capacitor Bank and SOLARIS panels to provide power to the Ravenmind and CLAW, RAILS is intended to be as small and portable as possible as well as Cheap. Four flat mounting pieces with spikes extending from the bottom edges of a RAILS allow the system to be nailed into the earth by Bear Troopers to keep it fixed in place on a wall or incline. It's mounts can be hooked to the back of a Bear suit for transport by a single Bear Trooper, or it can be carried by two grips on either side by between two and four Bear Troopers.

The primary use of the RAILS system is interdiction. The RAILS Ravenmind is capable of targeting anything in the sky, be it missiles or aircraft, infantry or tanks. Constantly networked to every other RAILS system in their assigned groups, the units will coordinate fire to hit targets that are likely to attempt a dodge. The secondary use is intelligence. Every RAILS unit can communicate the locations of friendlies and enemies alike to every other Ravenmind using units, and, most importantly, back to command and potentially to an ORACLE node if one exists nearby. Our field commanders will have unparalleled intelligence and awareness of the situation so long as a RAILS unit is within range of it, which will be often. The RAILS system does not contain a display itself, to cut down on size and expense, but anything that can communicate with the Ravenmind Intelligence network is capable of showing the data transmitted by RAILS.

They can (and will) be deployed on the Moon, to prevent Aratamite attacks from being capable of overwhelming our lunar operation(s). As well, they can be deployed on ships, whether on specially purposed hardpoints, or hammered into the surface by it's mounting spikes, and anywhere else we may need a helping hand to prevent enemy movement.

For Armor, it makes use of Combat Plating, and like a Bear Armor, it has an access port that can be moved aside  to connect a power cable to it for rapid recharging, and for a datalink to be connected during the rare maintenance of a RAILS set for new programs and IFF algorithms to be uploaded as needed. This allows us to program it not only to provide cover from Missiles, but also to dedicate groups to attacking infantry, coordinating multiple RAILS to take down tanks with a combined beam, and anything else we might need them for. In a single assigned set, a new program uploaded to one RAILS may be propagated via the radio network to save on time and datalink cable needed.

They also come with a Sleigh, as they are intended to be used in groups, and this allows for a squadron of Bear Troopers to transport more RAILS systems than they can carry on their backs or between them normally with less effort. The Sleigh comes with wheels and a simple brake. Pretty simple to allow their movement behind infantry marches, and doubles as mobile anti-air. Once in the general area RAILS are to be deployed in, individuals or pairs of Bear Troopers can transport the RAILS from the Sleigh further out, spreading them out to cover a wider area.

Most sleighs are equipped with one Logistical Update and Management (LUM) console, which is basically everything we took out of the Ravenminds for the RAILS system, such as the four color screen for tracking of intelligence and human interface, which is used to assign RAILS to groups, and can be loaded with new programs at an ORACLE node to upload to a RAILS system and brought to an area where RAILS are already deployed and connected to one via the datalink port. A LUM is an invaluable tool for a ground commander overseeing a battle where RAILS are deployed, and useless where they are not. Sleighs can also be loaded with GOFAST generators and power cables to resupply RAILS with power if they have run out and the SOLARIS panels have not kept them charged.

RAILS (revision 3) is designed to require as little maintenance as possible. They can be seeded into an area to deny it to an enemy, and left to run indefinitely as long as the SOLARIS panels keep working. If the area is one that is tactically advantageous to hold, or which we return to later, a LUM may be brought to update their programming in the case that it becomes outdated, as security protocols may change as Aratam code breakers may or may not be any good at their jobs. The inclusion of SOLARIS panels does make it cost more magmatite than the other two proposed versions, but without the need for ICE the only oil costs should be the Magmagel capacitors.

As a reminder, remember to have your IFF so you don't get targeted by mistake. Ravenminds may be smart enough to recognize you in your armor, but better safe than sorry.

As it's not quite clear. The Ravenmind is a box. Need for all that finicky human stuff is removed, but it's still a box. And the Optical Claw fires from a cone sticking out of the top. Still mostly a Box. It's just a question on how well we fit everything that determines how much of a Box.

Quote from: votebox
RIP-AT: (2)  m1895, NUKE9.13
ME-LDT-64 'RAILS': (3) Madman, Failbird, m1895
V2 ME-LDT-64 'RAILS': (1) TricMagic
V3 ME-LDT-64 'RAILS': (1) Flabort
ME-ODS-64 'KILLSAT': (0)
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Atomic Chicken

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Revision Phase)
« Reply #903 on: June 15, 2019, 12:44:16 am »

Quote from: votebox
RIP-AT: (2)  m1895, NUKE9.13
ME-LDT-64 'RAILS': (4) Madman, Failbird, m1895, AC
V2 ME-LDT-64 'RAILS': (1) TricMagic
V3 ME-LDT-64 'RAILS': (1) Flabort
ME-ODS-64 'KILLSAT': (0)
Logged
As mentioned in the previous turn, the most exciting field of battle this year will be in the Arstotzkan capitol, with plenty of close-quarter fighting and siege warfare.  Arstotzka, accordingly, spent their design phase developing a high-altitude tactical bomber. 

NUKE9.13

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Revision Phase)
« Reply #904 on: June 16, 2019, 10:37:54 am »

Quote from: votebox
RIP-AT: (1)  m1895
ME-LDT-64 'RAILS': (5) Madman, Failbird, m1895, AC, NUKE9.13
V2 ME-LDT-64 'RAILS': (1) TricMagic
V3 ME-LDT-64 'RAILS': (1) Flabort
ME-ODS-64 'KILLSAT': (0)
It doesn't really matter which version of this idea we do- it's a very simple concept that doesn't deserve this much bickering. The base RAILS looks fine to me.
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flabort

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Revision Phase)
« Reply #905 on: June 16, 2019, 04:30:51 pm »

Yeah, we can all pretty much agree we want RAILS. We could spend days arguing semantics and specifics if voting took place over the same time scale that development happens in game, probably, but RAILS is what we want.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Design Phase)
« Reply #906 on: June 18, 2019, 05:47:31 am »

Revision: ME-LDT-64 'Ravenmind Area Interdiction Laser System' (RAILS)
(Very Hard) (3+1)-2 = 2: Utter Failure


It turns out making an autonomous networking deployable swarming laser turret packed with sensors and with vastly upgraded target recognition all in a package smaller than even a single one of the existing components it's based off of in a revision is not the best idea. Who could have known?
Oh well. At least we have the Firestorm.

The RAILS is... it technically is a thing we have. Take a Ravenmind. About 3 meters long, and pretty thick in other directions too, currently laid out horizontally in the front-center of the Firestorm. We could not miniaturize it, even by stripping out functions not needed in a single-weapon static-position ground emplacement, in the time allotted. That's the first problem we had. Then we have to add the sensor package. And the radio (admittedly not hard but still it all piles up). And the conical Firestorm-style CLAW. And the miniature Magmagel tank and cycling system for the CLAW. Then a Magmagel battery for general electrical needs. And a GOFAST generator along with its tank. Then cover it all in combat plating.
Not only is it very heavy, but it's also very big. It makes a huge target and requires an entire dedicated Bear trooper team to relocate. Slowly.

Firstly, the RAILS can not reliably identify anything that's not already being tracked by the Ravenmind as used in the Firestorm. At one point we got it to recognize infantry, but failed at the part where we get it to not shoot our own guys. Important part, so that's scrapped. Artillery bombardment is questionable. Unpowered non-gigantic projectiles go by unnoticed. Artillery and infantry-grade rockets and missiles have a miniature chance of being noticed. Aircraft, theoretical (not-super-weird) Aratamite spacecraft, anything directly relevant to a Firestorm? Probably. Not that they'll be passing within effective CLAW range of a RAILS anytime soon. Most of the target identification issues are caused by general inadequate software/processing, but ground sensor interference contributes to the problems a notable amount as well.

Secondly, power issues. We have to power the CLAW, the radio, the Ravenmind (which may not be a laser energy weapon but it is still a miniaturized supercomputer), and the extensive sensor suite. And we have to maintain a small tank and small generator. Without constant resupply, a RAILS is expected to completely run out of fuel in standard combat operating conditions. In scenarios where the CLAW is especially taxed, it could be significantly shorter. The GOFAST generator should at least be able to not have trouble powering it all at once, even if it runs out of fuel quickly.

Third, heating problems. With no space, budget, or power for a STABIL-ICE cooling system, a RAILS overheats very fast. The Ravenmind generates a lot of heat. The CLAW generates a lot of heat. The GOFAST generator generates a lot of heat. The entire assembly is a lot of heat, with nowhere for that heat to go. We expect for up to five to ten minutes after the CLAW is used in any capacity, the entire assembly will begin overheating. It won't destroy or melt itself, but it will massively throttle itself. Ravenmind processing will go down to a fraction of its proper power, and CLAW fire rate goes down to levels which our testing soldiers have taken to calling "useless".

Communication of intelligence and data technically works, except for two problems:
1.) Information communicated just isn't that useful. Raw sensor data is too much for humans or the ORACLE to handle, and when on the ground and without proper modifications to improve intelligence gathering and compiling, the Ravenmind just won't get anything of particular use that we wouldn't already know through other means. This is by far the biggest problem here.
2.) Too many Ravenminds in an area and they'll start getting overwhelmed with data. This isn't normally a problem with Firestorms due to just better engineering on their part and because even cheap Firestorms wouldn't have the same ability to be congregated in a single area. But without the proper handshake protocols of the Firestorms, RAILS Ravenminds indiscriminately fling out and accept every piece of data they get. With enough Ravenminds within communication range, the massive amounts of data will bottleneck Ravenminds as they are forced to focus on processing all the received data, hurting more important functions.


All in all, the RAILS is not a useful piece of combat gear at the moment. It's huge, heavy, difficult to transport, and just not useful in combat thanks to intelligence limitations. It's at least Cheap, costing 4 Ore, 2 Oil, and 1 Magmatite. Magmatite is needed for the minimal amounts of Magmagel used, oil is needed for the small tank (1 unit) of GOFAST fuel (+1 unit), and ore is needed to build the whole thing. Expense is rated at an infantry-scale level. Assuming we wanted to and had the capability to, we could deploy a lot of RAILS across the battlefields. But they aren't useful enough to deploy, and even if they were useful enough we wouldn't be able to transport all of them without severely handicapping infantry thanks to transport requirements.

So a useless but technically complete autonomous laser turret. It may be useless now, but it gave us plenty of experience in the field if we want to try again (probably with a bigger budget) or if we were to do something else based off of it. Or we could always just modify away its flaws and make it useful. That's a decision for later.

Spoiler: Designs (click to show/hide)

The Combat Phase of Fall 1964 has begun. You may optionally vote on a single "intrigue" action to take focusing on oddities in Mereth, the landmass, Aratam, or even internationally. This will hopefully yield useful results, but it is not to be used to attempt to perform wartime espionage on Aratam. This action simply represents our division's internal efforts to investigate recent goings-on. There may or may not be consequences.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

NUKE9.13

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Combat Phase)
« Reply #907 on: June 18, 2019, 06:25:22 am »

Okay, so, obviously that was unexpected. I think we all overestimated the ability of the Ravenmind to recognise ground targets and share information.

That said, these things happen. Let us, in the words of a great man, maintain our chill composure. We should've asked more questions about the Ravenmind's capabilities rather than assuming. It's unfortunate, but then again, with that roll even a Normal difficulty would've resulted in a mediocre product. This was apparently an "Easy VH", hence why we have something (that doesn't work) rather than literal nothing. A second revision should be enough to bring it up to spec.

Anyway, we can keep this sekrit, so the Aratamites won't be able to develop a preemptive counter.
For our strategy actions, the only thing to think about is internal investigations. I don't think we should try and unmask the masterminds of whatever's going on just yet- gathering more info would be prudent. I think investigating the ORACLE paper trail would be a good place to start. Alternatively, we could look into the alleged discrepancies between the world that lunarnauts leave and the one they return to, although I think that's probably more an N-dimensional thing than a Merethine intrigue thing.


Quote from: Strategy Votes
Internal Investigations
Perform a deep dive into ORACLE's databanks, looking for more out-of-place files or corrupted data (possibly attempting to... de-corrupt the data?): (1) NUKE9.13


Misc Decisions
Keep RAILS secret, codename PROJECT RAILWAY: (1) NUKE9.13
Logged
Long Live United Forenia!

TricMagic

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Combat Phase)
« Reply #908 on: June 18, 2019, 07:16:45 am »

Well,m at least we have a base if we want anti-air on our Aircraft Carrier. Or at least Anti-missile, probobly better to focus on that.



Quote from: Strategy Votes
Internal Investigations
Perform a deep dive into ORACLE's databanks, looking for more out-of-place files or corrupted data (possibly attempting to... de-corrupt the data?): (1) NUKE9.13

Track down where the Firestorm that disappeared went: (1) TricMagic


Misc Decisions
Keep RAILS secret, codename PROJECT RAILWAY: (1) NUKE9.13, TricMagic
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 08:51:08 am by TricMagic »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Combat Phase)
« Reply #909 on: June 18, 2019, 08:47:23 am »

That's not a valid intrigue action, Tric, as it falls more into design/revision territory.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

TricMagic

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Combat Phase)
« Reply #910 on: June 18, 2019, 08:51:45 am »

Changed.

Also repeats here that I asked in Discord, did not receive an answer.
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Atomic Chicken

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Combat Phase)
« Reply #911 on: June 18, 2019, 09:42:37 am »

Quote from: Strategy Votes
Internal Investigations
Perform a deep dive into ORACLE's databanks, looking for more out-of-place files or corrupted data (possibly attempting to... de-corrupt the data?): (1) NUKE9.13

Track down where the Firestorm that disappeared went: (1) TricMagic

Investigate the stranger who accompanied the President following his moon landing speech: (1) AC


Misc Decisions
Keep RAILS secret, codename PROJECT RAILWAY: (3) NUKE9.13, TricMagic, AC
Logged
As mentioned in the previous turn, the most exciting field of battle this year will be in the Arstotzkan capitol, with plenty of close-quarter fighting and siege warfare.  Arstotzka, accordingly, spent their design phase developing a high-altitude tactical bomber. 

m1895

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Combat Phase)
« Reply #912 on: June 18, 2019, 09:48:34 am »

Quote from: Strategy Votes
Internal Investigations
Perform a deep dive into ORACLE's databanks, looking for more out-of-place files or corrupted data (possibly attempting to... de-corrupt the data?): (2) NUKE9.13, m1895

Track down where the Firestorm that disappeared went: (1) TricMagic

Investigate the stranger who accompanied  the President following his moon landing speech: (1) AC

Misc Decisions
Keep RAILS secret, codename PROJECT RAILWAY: (3) NUKE9.13, TricMagic, m1895
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 09:52:26 am by m1895 »
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Madman198237

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Combat Phase)
« Reply #913 on: June 18, 2019, 12:27:26 pm »

Quote from: Strategy Votes
Internal Investigations
Perform a deep dive into ORACLE's databanks, looking for more out-of-place files or corrupted data (possibly attempting to... de-corrupt the data?): (3) NUKE9.13, m1895, Madman

Track down where the Firestorm that disappeared went: (1) TricMagic

Investigate the stranger who accompanied  the President following his moon landing speech: (1) AC

Misc Decisions
Keep RAILS secret, codename PROJECT RAILWAY: (4) NUKE9.13, TricMagic, m1895, Madman
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flabort

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Re: Mad Arms Race - Mereth Design Division (Fall 1964 - Combat Phase)
« Reply #914 on: June 18, 2019, 04:44:41 pm »


Quote from: Strategy Votes
Internal Investigations
Perform a deep dive into ORACLE's databanks, looking for more out-of-place files or corrupted data (possibly attempting to... de-corrupt the data?): (3) NUKE9.13, m1895, Madman

Track down where the Firestorm that disappeared went: (1) TricMagic

Investigate the stranger who accompanied  the President following his moon landing speech: (1) AC

Get full psych evals and seek international psychiatric (American? A lot of prominent psych research was coming from the U.S. in the real world 60s) help for Volunteers: (1) Flabort

Misc Decisions
Keep RAILS secret, codename PROJECT RAILWAY: (5) NUKE9.13, TricMagic, m1895, Madman, Flabort
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The Cyan Menace

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