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[Strongpoint]

We can build a functional tank now and it will be relevant to the end of the war if we build it right. I argue that doing that ends up in the infinite cycle of "make it a little better" in which you continue to research the "next big tech" and say "but it will be better later" and never actually build anything.

Here we disagree. I expect that pretty anything we may design now will go obsolete quite soon. Simply because they'll develop counters and technology will go on. And the second part is a saying. "You don't want to build the thing now, that means you don't want to the thing later" Which is not my position so arguing against it is pointless.

Or we can design the space missiles, which will have nothing in common with atmospheric missiles except for the fact that fire goes out of one end and the other end is explosive.

Experience in guidance systems is experience in guidance systems. Experience in making warheads is experience in making warheads. Also, who said that we don't want missiles that work both in atmosphere and in space?

If they make a tank and we have nothing, we're screwed. If we have a better-designed tank, we win. I believe that given the methods I have supplied to defeat lasers, our tank could win. Further suggestions are welcome.

We won't have nothing. We'll have a design that hurts them in other way. Good luck using tanks when there are no fuel to run them because you have no fusion reactor left to fuel your precious batteries.

I have something you need to read up on, it's called the speed of light. If modern-day ground platforms can traverse fast enough to put enough bullets in an aircraft to bring it down, you darn well better believe a laser platform with post-modern tracking systems can do it. ESPECIALLY when the INFANTRY VERSION of said laser is capable of melting through armor.

I imagine their infantry aiming at an aircraft and laugh. They have no laser anti-aircraft systems. They may get some, but I am perfectly fine them burning design on this while we simply win D and design a tank for deployment on other planets. They have standard issue rifles that are quite effective against armor and we can only partly negate that by doing anti-laser countermeasures. Or we can go for a thing that doesn't care about their rifles at all.
Hell, if I was them and faced a tank. I'd just revise a more powerful anti-tank version of the laser rifle to really screw opponents in a cost effective manner.

Kill them in space if possible, but don't rely on killing them before they land. That way lies madness. Oh, and a lot of defeats.

You are assuming that we can't shoot a single landing shuttle, shuttle with supplies, destroy elements of infrastructure or just strafe them for some battlefield effect. I see no grounds for this assumption

Or we could just deploy our tanks, which will likely have a high enough GPP cost. Oh, and we can also transport some Mjolnir installations around, soon anyway.

I do hope that one unit of tanks won't have 18gpp cost. And we can't transfer Mjolnir soon (aka next turn when we'll have an important task of fighting for D)

Not really. None of our vehicles use airfoils and none of them are capable of loitering. Presently you're either firing the engines for all its worth to get away from the planet, or you're coming in for a landing. That is very much not similar to spacecraft.

It is less not similar than a tank

[evilcherry]

My bet is that they would concentrate on the heavens for this turn. They might have won the ground battle, but they have no way to resupply them. Unless they got lucky to make something that has space capability and capable of influencing ground battles, we should do good with an armored platform (tank, hovertank, whatever) to do short work of their troops. A big plus is that we should be able to revise it into effective mobile AA platforms once we got the right kind of weapon.

[Strongpoint]

My bet is that they would concentrate on the heavens for this turn.

It is likely that both their design and their revision went for space. It is extremely unlikely that they won't design a thing for ground combat next turn. Lets not assume that our opponents are idiots, OK? They want a way to spend GPP as much as we do.

We should do good with an armored platform (tank, hovertank, whatever) to do short work of their

Their troops are well equipped against tanks because they have armor piercing lasers. Doing a tank is playing directly into their tactical advantage.

[Madman198237]

Strongpoint...you missed the ideas behind a lot of my points.

I'm going in order from your previous post that quoted my posts, but I don't have time right now to make it all nice, neat, and separated by the relevant quotes. Sorry.


First up: And they won't develop counters to your wunderwaffen that are specialized for each planet and whatnot?

The rules are VASTLY different in space. You can't use fins, and you don't have to be constantly thrusting.

What on earth do you mean, "no fusion reactor left to fuel your precious batteries"? My vehicle proposals all include their own powerplants, for one thing.

You might laugh, but I'm just disappointed that you don't understand what "basically instantaneous impact" means for shooting down planes. It means that the aircraft's first, and only, defense, SPEED, is MEANINGLESS. If you can point the gun at it, you can kill it, because planes are, by necessity, unarmored.

I'm not assuming anything. We controlled BOTH relevant orbits last turn, Strongpoint. Neither one of which mattered enough on the ground. We didn't shoot down any shuttles or anything.

I'm suggesting we build a ground vehicle, which is much easier to build (With no knowledge) than an aircraft. In no way, shape, or form am I suggesting turning a spacecraft into a ground vehicle, and for good reason.

[Strongpoint]

First up: And they won't develop counters to your wunderwaffen that are specialized for each planet and whatnot?

How many times I need to repeat that I don't want to make a specialized design for each planet? I want to make a partly specialized project (it works on 3 out of 7 non homeworld planets, revision can make it more usable) because of current tactical situation.
Will they develop a counter? Sure. It is a not a problem. It will serve its tactical purpose. As for a long strategical impact it will be be design for a design. If we design a land vehicle and it gets countered then... we have to design another land design to partly counter their counter. We get nothing tactical, we spend 2 vs 1 strategical.

You are assuming that jet will go obsolete, tank will be produced till the end of the war. I expect that both will go obsolete very soon, simply because it is the first vehicle designed for our ground forces and we are bound to find better use for our GPP.
This is not like many other arms games where our own designs don't compete with each other. Here we will make designs obsolete long before they lose all their combat effectiveness and will start producing something else.

The rules are VASTLY different in space. You can't use fins, and you don't have to be constantly thrusting.

And? Are you implying that there are nothing in common? No way to use experience in ones for experience in others. No way to make misile that work in both environments (fins that move in or out, engine that can work in different modes or whatever)

You might laugh, but I'm just disappointed that you don't understand what "basically instantaneous impact" means for shooting down planes. It means that the aircraft's first, and only, defense, SPEED, is MEANINGLESS. If you can point the gun at it, you can kill it, because planes are, by necessity, unarmored.

Are you seriously implying that their infantry can take their rifle and aim at an aircraft moving at supersonic speed? Also, modern aircrafts aren't armored, that doesn't mean that all aircrafts aren't armored.
And you ignored the part about vulnerability of tanks to their current rifles and that we should avoid playing in their current strength.

I'm not assuming anything. We controlled BOTH relevant orbits last turn, Strongpoint. Neither one of which mattered enough on the ground. We didn't shoot down any shuttles or anything.

We had almost a draw over D, what are you talking about? Also, you are comparing apples and oranges.

[Thanatos Russ]

One of our big goals is to take over a planet closer to the enemy that can produce ships and repair our stuff and perform the upgrades.

Once we do that then our fleet can recharge way easier.

[Madman198237]

You think that, SOMEHOW, your specialized wunderwaffe (Impractical "super"-weapon) won't become outdated, and so we should do that. However, we will spend the same two designs regardless of whether we take your path or mine, ASSUMING they can get in a perfect counter of some sort. Do recall, we have a hard counter of our own: Until they spend some SERIOUS investment in super-armor, our railguns basically hard-counter land-vehicle armor. You just can't put enough armor on a land vehicle to stop a railgun slug.


Yes, I am implying that the way they move, and thus the very basics of their guidance systems, have nothing in common. Making a missile that functions in both environments isn't going to be efficient.


Why yes, yes I am implying that if you point the gun at the aircraft, there will be an effect on said aircraft. However, I do believe you misinterpreted that to mean that the infantry would be routinely shooting down planes. I mean that if they build an antiaircraft laser, or even a laser equivalent to a 20mm/30mm cannon, our aircraft are going to be screwed.

I didn't respond to your second-to-last point (oops, missed it when I was reading, sorry!) which threw off the order, however that comment was responding to us attempting to rely on shooting down transports and shuttles through the use of aircraft, which isn't going to work well enough to bother with.

[NUKE9.13]

Okay, everybody chill. Madman, maybe re-read Strongpoint's post; he specifically said that both designs would go obsolete.

[Madman198237]

Indeed, however he implies that my plan results in them countering us and then we have to spend another design, while his would somehow avoid that.

As for chilling, the internet is terribly at conveying tone. I may be arguing (But why would you bother considering this unusual?), but I'm not angry about it.

[NUKE9.13]

It is the start of SY 102
Battle report for SY101

Everything is going smoothly. Remember to respect the environment with this year's designs. Or else.

It is now the Design Phase of SY102

Spoiler: Tech List (click to show/hide)

Ships
ITC (Interplanetary Transport Craft): The ships that carried colonists to your homeworld, now repurposed as military transports. They use rocket shuttles to ferry things to and from the surface. These shuttles have a limited capacity, meaning that with the exception of troops, the ITC cannot carry any equipment of a size greater than 1TC. It has 4TC. It uses chemical engines for propulsion. It has no armour or armaments. It is Very Slow, and quite large.
Cost: 2SPP
  QS-RAS-00 'Dove': A heavier shuttle for the ITC, powered by a Loki-class Stardust reactor and fitted with Apollo thrusters. It has light armour and two 30mm Hayks. Can carry 3TC. Adds 1SPP to the cost of an ITC.

QS-CA-99 'Odin': A heavily armoured medium-sized spaceship. Her hull is all slope, the front being a point, from which slopes lead up to the widest point, then slopes lead down at the same angle, before being cut off, leaving a large flat area in the back, where the main thrusters are. Aforementioned main thrusters are three Apollos. She has five smaller thrusters mounted pointing in other directions, providing excellent manoeuvrability. Her powerplant is a Stardust reactor. She is armed with four Mjolnir turrets providing excellent coverage, and a single spinal-mount extra-long Mjolnir. Her weapons are aimed by the Huginn System, which automatically collects data from her improved radar. Her armour consists of a layer of Heavy titanium with faraday insulation, with a layer of Light ceramics mounted a full three meters away from the main hull. Despite her bulk, she moves at a Moderate pace.
Cost: 3SPP

QS-SF-00 'Loki': A small-ish fighter, capable of independent operation for a few days before needing to resupply. A substantially downsized Stardust reactor provides power to the Apollo thrusters, as well as the singular Mjolnir coilgun. Has light armour, and a radio capable of same-orbit communication. Requires a transport to act as 'mothership'- two Lokis take up 1TC
Cost: 1SPP for two.

Equipment
Printed Pistol: Issued to security guards before the war, the only real weapon both colonies started with. They are 3D-printed out of plastic, a process which is not entirely reliable, meaning the gun has a tendency to break after prolonged use... or any use, really.
Cost: Cheap

X100 Space Suit: A civilian space suit, totally unarmoured and cumbersome to walk in. At least it works well enough, and has a self-sealing lining meaning a single shot isn't an immediate death sentence... most of the time. Necessary for deployment to worlds without breathable atmospheres.
Cost: Cheap

Interplanetary Radio: Essentially just a very big radio set, capable of reliable communication between planets. Too big to fit on an ITC. Currently only useful for taunting Ertex.
Cost: 2GPP
Weight: 2TC

QS-IRW-99 'Hayk': The Hayk is a micromissile-firing rifle. It is magazine fed, has a reasonable rate of fire, and is accurate at a surprising distance- theoretically out to Long range, although few are capable of such superhuman feats. There is an ammo variant which explodes on contact, though it is less accurate and in shorter supply.
Cost: Cheap


Infrastructure

Colony Defence Grid: The reason you can't instantly invade the enemy homeworld. A series of surface-to-orbit missile launchers, the only real concession to self defence the planners of the colony made. How they work is a mystery, and no one wants to risk taking them apart to find out.

QS-CPP-96 'Stardust': A fusion reactor, copies of which can be found across Quillus, powering industry. Utilises powerful niobium-tin superconductors, cooled by liquid helium, to contain plasma in a Tokamak-style. The "Brokkr's Forge" improvements have made it slightly more effective, to the point where it reaches ignition. Grants 2GPP and 2SPP. A smaller version designed for use in spaceships also exists.


Loose Parts
QS-MAC-97 'Mjolnir': A coilgun (and definitely not a railgun) capable of firing 150mm slugs at considerable speeds. Requires a substantial power supply. Ground installations cost 1GPP for four. Ship mountings cost 1SPP for  eight.

QS-MHD-98 'Apollo': A magneto-plasma-dynamic thruster of exceptional efficiency. Uses hydrogen plasma by default; heavier elements can be injected into the mix for a boost in thrust.


Misc Tech

QS-PMP-96 'Auto-Forge': A 3D-printer that prints using metal. Not astonishingly accurate, but QC weeds out any pieces that aren't of acceptable standards.

Spoiler: Observed enemy tech (click to show/hide)

Ships
ITC (Interplanetary Transport Craft): No differences noticed.

ESC-FS 1 'Cuttlefish' laser corvette: A medium-sized spaceship. The Cuttlefish's hull vaguely resembles its namesake. The 'beak' is a "Hermes" variable-water-injected fusion thruster, which draws plasma from the Helios-S reactor. It has very light armour, and has three AX4-Spear laser turrets, which are automatically (albeit poorly) aimed. Its speed is Moderate, though it can inject extra water into the thruster for a temporary speed boost.
Cost: 2SPP


Equipment
Printed Pistol: No differences noticed.

X100 Space Suit: No differences noticed.

EAF-X1 "Ranger" Laser Rifle: A big, bulky firearm, weighing in at 15kg- just barely wieldable whilst standing. Works best against stationary targets. Can fire 30 shots in pulse mode before reloading, or 15 seconds in beam mode. Beam mode has pretty good armour penetration against conventional armour. Comes with basic scope and bipod. With the scope it is accurate at Long range.
Cost: Cheap
  EAF-PX3 Raider: A variant of the Ranger, using the new Picasso Pattern. Weighs a 'mere' 7.5kg. Fires shorter pulses, and deals more damage against moving targets. Does not have a beam mode.

Interplanetary Radio: No differences noticed.


Infrastructure
Colony Defence Grid: No differences noticed.

"Helios" Fusion Reactor: A large, Tokamak style reactor. Performs He3-He3 fusion, though it does not take full advantage of this. Provides 2SPP and 2GPP.
  Helios-S: A variety specifically designed for use in spaceships. A 'twisted' plasma flow allows for plasma to be siphoned off without disrupting the reaction.


Misc Tech
NQ Cells: About 15 times better than chemical batteries. Palm-sized, weigh about a kilo each. Despite their apparent complexity, manufacture and usage is simple.

Libum-265K: A near-room temperature superconductor. Manufacture is complicated.

Spoiler: Production (click to show/hide)

Ship Production Points: 16+2
  6 points: 3xITC
  9 points: 3xOdin
  2 points: 4xLoki
  1 point: Unassigned

Ground Production Points: 16+2
  18 points: Unassigned
 
Units: 5
  2 Units on planet A (No extra equipment)
  1 Unit on planet C (No extra equipment)
  1 Unit on planet D (No extra equipment)
  1 Unit on planet F (No extra equipment)

Spoiler: The Map (click to show/hide)

Don't even worry about this looking nothing like a solar system. Its, uh, optimal transfers or something. Look, it's dumb, but what do you want from me?

Key:
A: A volcanic world. Constant eruptions and earthquakes result in a thoroughly unpleasant environment. 4SPP, 2GPP
  E:0/6, Q:1/6
B&F: Rocky worlds. (Almost) no atmosphere, no major tectonic activity, these planets are... boring. The most notable terrain features are the craters that litter the surface. 2SPP, 2GPP
C: An ocean world. Covered in 94% water, with a breathable atmosphere, and a few inhabitable islands. Prepare for lots of island-hopping. 2SPP, 4GPP
  Q:2/6
D: An earthlike world. Covered in 69% water, with a breathable atmosphere, most of the surface being inhabitable. Terrain varies wildly, from open plains to thick jungles- and of course vast seas. 5SPP, 5GPP
  E:2/6, Q:0/6
E: A frozen world. Almost entirely covered in ice, with an atmosphere too thin to breathe. Ice sheets make for treacherous terrain, with snow-covered mountains being not much better. 2SPP, 4GPP
  E:2/6
G: A desert world. With a few salty 'seas' covering a mere 12% of the surface, the majority of this planet is dry as a bone. Vast sandscapes dominate, punctured by low, rocky hills, and the ocassional oasis. The atmosphere is breathable. 2SPP, 4GPP.
Ertex&Quillus: Earthlike worlds. Capturing the enemy homeworld results in victory. Yield no Production Points. I mean, they do, but those are already accounted for in your basic industry.

[Madman198237]

QS-MBT-02 even more Huggable 'Hrungnir'
The "Brawler" Main Battle Tank is Quillus's first venture into ground armor. It uses the smallest Stardust we have to power a 50mm miniaturized Mjolnir coilgun that can also fire 50mm explosive Hayk rockets on a low-power setting. The drive system is electric-motor-driven with a wide track-base. The armor is Medium titanium underneath Medium ceramic, of the type the Odin is protected by, coated with a paint that reflect Ertexian laser wavelengths. Heat sensors just under the ceramics detect laser shots and trigger sets of canister-dischargers, depending on the side that took the hit, as well as notifying the fire-control computer of the side of the tank that was hit. The canisters are filled with a compound that makes a thick, laser-scattering smoke when in atmosphere, or a bunch of very thin, very light metal strips when in vacuum to serve the same purpose. A fire-control computer uses a broadband sensor package and a small radar set to calculate distances to targets. Every vehicle from now on will have a small IFF tag to allow the system to distinguish them from enemies. An automatic loading system and the largely computer-controlled firing system reduce crew requirements. The weapon is fully stabilized. A radio is included (Not an interplanetary one). The vehicle will be as low-lying as possible, with a turret that slopes (With sharp angles at the corners for that extra-imposing look) down to the body of the tank to prevent shot-trapping should the enemy ever wizen up to the benefits of projectiles, while the tank itself is angular and the armor is generally sloped at any face you might look at, though the sides and back are less steeply sloped than the front. It is entirely atmospherically sealed, so whether your battlefield is the bottom of a river (Note: Please do not attempt to discharge the main gun while underwater, the reloading process may not go quite as swimmingly as you may wish for.) or the airless, lifeless rock that you really don't want to die on, you can fight there without a spacesuit!

Incredibly environmentally friendly, as it produces almost no emissions whatsoever from its Stardust micro-fusion-reactor! In addition, there are no harmful propellants emitted from the primary ammunition! Its tough armor is produced entirely in government-controlled factories that have almost zero emissions! It is the ultimate expression of our will to persevere and succeed in all we do, and it will succeed against the Ertexite poisoners who destroy environments on a whim.

Name may be subject to change. Propose fixes, ideas, alternatives, please.

[evilcherry]

Support the QS-MBT-02, although we can just skip the coilgun part if in a pinch. We can then make our larger diameter hayks smart enough for our tanks to fight totally hull-down.

[Strongpoint]

QS-I-02 "Bee"
Bee is a one seat jet engine powered aerodynamic interceptor with vertical launch ability that can operate on very-high attitude or atmospheres with even low amounts of oxygen. It is made from 3d printed titanium-aluminum alloy parts and coated with reflective heat resistant ceramic to protect pilot and vital systems against lasers. It is armed with a 20mm Hayk and four wing mounts for either more Hayks or old fashioned bombs or radar-guided missiles controlled by on-board miniaturized version of Huginn guidance system. Intended role of Bee is shooting down enemy shuttles that try to land troops/bring supplies and engaging other aerial targets. Secondary role of the interceptor is attacking vulnerable large stationary ground targets like supply depots, fusion reactors, and other objects of infrastructure that need no great firepower to damage. It can be used for close air support but it isn't optimized for engaging small land targets

My short-mid term plan focused on changing the tide on D

Step one - design aircraft above (design phase of this turn)
Step two - revise utility vehicle (revision phase of this turn)
Step three - load the aircraft in transport with Dove, load utility vehicle in transport with utility vehicles. Send all fleet to D except transport at F which goes home.
Step four - design long term advancement, something like research center for anti-laser coatings or anything else that will benefit our future tank.
step five - revise whatever we need
Step six - look where our warships are needed, pull two transport home, send transport loaded with utility vehicles to whatever non-D planet that need attention
step seven - design a tank. Design a damn good tank
Step eight - Revise the tank. Revise it even it is damn good.
step nine - use SSP we should get from controlling C to build new transports and\or doves
step ten - send a wave of transports with tanks to various planets

the only weak spot of the plan is that we may omit turn two

If anyone will say again that I want a hyper-specialized wunderwaffe stuff and ignore long term implications, then I am gonna cry

I more than welcome suggestions of how to improve my jet design. Maybe more ground attack version will serve us better even if I like the concept of countering unarmed shuttles hard. I am also considering omitting missiles and just go for Hayks + bombs to make design easier. After we are at the stage when we need to start reconquering D


My plans also works with alternatives to aircraft, designs that work well on D, have TC3 size and not a tank.

[Strongpoint]

QS-BM-02 "Thor's hammer"
Thor's hammer is a compact yet deadly ballistic missile coming with all environment electric tracked launch vehicle (TC3). The missile is powered by a Stardust fusion  reactor modified in a way to become a small hydrogen bomb on demand (it is a tactical, not strategical nuke). Missile is propelled by Apollo thruster. It is covered by anor similar to one used on Odin, to give it some durability against possible enemy anti-missile lasers. It uses a sophisticated guidance system based on Huginn System which gives it incredible accuracy. Surprisingly, such deadly weapon has another role and acts a mobile energy source for the army and its reactor is capable to power various objects, including Mjolnir installations and land vehicles with electric engines. That's not all! Sensors, normally used for guiding the missile, can be used as a detection tools to monitor approaching enemy forces. Sometimes they self-destruct as the last ditch defense.

It is a toy for our guerillas on D. It uses a lot of our experience gained in building of the navy. It is versatile. It won't become fully obsolete. It can be a basis of our future space torpedoes. It gives us experience in land vehicles.



Nevermind, stardust is too big... and bad in exploding.

[Madman198237]

QS-BM-02 "Thor's Hammer": (1) strongpoint
QS-MBT-02 'Hrungnir': (2) Madman, evilcherry

Vote for the Even More Huggable!, er, Hrungir! It has adorability superior murdering capability!