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Author Topic: Would df lose it's appeal ...?  (Read 6599 times)

Nyxalinth

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2017, 03:01:05 pm »

I dunno. Graphics are nice, and no doubt would widen DF's appeal, but I'd rather on certain mechanic being easier to get my head around. Not simplified, per se, but in terms of no longer requiring clunky finagling to get them to work.

Mind, without that, would it still be DF?
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Urist McVoyager

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2017, 10:35:49 pm »

Well, there is a game out that has Mount and Blade level graphics and has the start of feeling like you're an adventurer creating your own settlement. It's called Kingdoms. So we already have a bit of a test case where the graphics are concerned.

And as for size, I know you can zoom in and out on the map with the mouse wheel. Pretty sure changing your screen resolution will fix the menu size, too. So it's not that there aren't options, it'd just be nice if the menu stuff had sizing options built right into the game.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2017, 09:22:22 pm »

Well, there is a game out that has Mount and Blade level graphics and has the start of feeling like you're an adventurer creating your own settlement. It's called Kingdoms. So we already have a bit of a test case where the graphics are concerned.

And as for size, I know you can zoom in and out on the map with the mouse wheel. Pretty sure changing your screen resolution will fix the menu size, too. So it's not that there aren't options, it'd just be nice if the menu stuff had sizing options built right into the game.
It does.
Well, kind of. SInce the options menu is in the form of a text file, that's not what some people would call 'built right into the game' but a larger tileset is included in the vanilla download for those who can figure out the (fairly self-explanatory) options settings.
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Miuramir

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2017, 03:38:26 pm »

tl;dr: A better interface or a much prettier game would not turn me away in the abstract, but the reality of the situation is that the only way the second would happen would be to cripple things in such a way that *would* turn me away. 

These are two separate affairs.  Personally, I think the user interface could use some improvements, particularly in terms of consistency; the secondary-scroll mechanic in particular is problematic, and the game is generally bad about explaining why you can't do something.  Being reasonably competent at operating (not playing) DF requires use of the wiki, the forums, or a lot of fiddly trial and error... the difficulty should come from the game and the world, not the interface.  This is not, strictly speaking, a complaint; it's a game in early alpha with many years left before release, and a certain degree of clunkieness can be expected. 

On the flip side, I find that tiny, bad art does a worse job of being usable than the pseudo-extended-ASCII art.  I do usually swap to a 12x12 or 16x16 square set on larger monitors, but in general when you need to look over a large area with a lot of detail, icons do better then pictures.  (One of the really interesting things about the Stardock "Elemental" games is that they are 3D representational when zoomed in, but go to a "cloth map" version with clear icons when you zoom out far enough (configurable).  If DF ever gets a full 3D engine, this would seem to be the way to go.)

I'm also in the position to remember the huge drop in game quality when the PS2 came out, and so many game lines went from beautiful 2D to terrible 3D art that took longer and was more expensive.  It took many years, and frankly the next generation of consoles, to get back to the level of clarity, usability, and craftsmanship / artistry we had. 

Most importantly, however, is that DF is fundamentally about being a meta-generator for *many* different types of worlds.  Trying to create a procedural art system to adequately represent, let alone artistically represent, the wonder and theme of a procedurally-generated mythos and culture is a task probably beyond even an AAA studio at the current tech level.  I'm not saying it will always be impossible; but what we need to be thinking about in these early alpha days is how to best represent more abstract concepts.  In the future, we will have worlds with few to no creatures pre-defined; we need to be not thinking about how to best draw an elephant in the limited pixels we have, but what icon to represent a very large herbivore that is passive by default but dangerous if provoked, because whatever roams the savanna -analogue may have no visual similarities to an elephant at all. 

What we really need is a "fantasy" version of the NATO symbols.  They have been refined over more than 30 years, and are specifically designed such that even if you have no idea what the specific thing being represented *is*, you have a general idea of its relevance and importance to the overall tactical or strategic picture from the way the icon is constructed from meaningful parts.  One might combine symbol sub-elements for ground-based, predator, large size; with additional elements for "can leap" and "can stalk / ambush" to get the icon for a panthera (great cat) like creature, for instance.  But if on another world that ecological niche is filled by some weird lesser drake / lizardy thing, it might have the same *functional* icon, even if it's a leathery purple thing instead of a furry orange thing. 
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ZM5

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2017, 03:47:46 am »

In terms of graphics, no, definitely not. I prefer it myself since it lets the imagination work.

I think the only thing that has lost its appeal to me in DF is the procedurally generated creatures.
From a gameplay standpoint, aside from the bogeymen, they can provide a good challenge (provided they're not made out of something like water or other materials that break apart easily) - its just from a design and in-game "lore" standpoint I find them really boring.

While procedural generation is neat, I don't believe it can replace or outdo creatures designed by an actual human being, both in terms of appearance and gameplay purpose. Its why I prefer stuff that Toady made himself, like the Green Devourer or the Crundles, and why I wish he'd add more stuff like that - it's also one of the reasons I started modding.

Thorfinn

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2017, 07:24:11 pm »

Well, there is a game out that has Mount and Blade level graphics and has the start of feeling like you're an adventurer creating your own settlement. It's called Kingdoms. So we already have a bit of a test case where the graphics are concerned.
Oh, come on. Kingdoms is nothing at all like DF. And before you say it, neither is Banished.

The game that's reasonably close is Gnomoria. And that's the game people should look to when talking about UI changes. Look at how involved the context-sensitive right-click is there. Or even the pull-downs. And that's with a very limited "tech tree". It could be done, sure. For example, you could set a track stop with some right-click set of menus, then bring up a series of dialog boxes to arrive at the same state, but it would not be as easy to do as it is in DF for an experienced player. OK, maybe if you spent the time coming up with a GUI version of macros, but DF is really hard to beat for things like that.

So maybe the UI could become cumbersome to the point it's just not worth the time. But I can't see how Gnomoria-style graphics would be a reason to rage-quit the game.
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2017, 08:08:36 pm »

It's not even a point to why I love DF... I'm sure the majority would stay.
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Baffler

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2017, 02:00:21 pm »

I don't think it would lose its appeal, unless the new graphics were both hideously ugly and locked in or something like that. I don't play DF so I can brag about it after all.
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2017, 02:14:19 pm »

While I vastly prefer DF's current ASCII graphics as they allow for greater freedom of imagination and make it easier for Tarn to focus on game mechanics, I probably wouldn't outright LEAVE if they were changed. It would certainly take some getting used to, but basically everything in DF did at one point for me.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 02:15:54 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
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zenkai

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2017, 04:10:01 am »

The only thing that would ever make me quit DF is if the interface ever required a mouse. If I had to take my hands off the keyboard to touch the mouse even infrequently I'd be severely annoyed. And if it were all mouse-based, I'm worried my poor eyes would start to hate me. Right now all navigation and actions are purely muscle memory which makes it so much easier to focus on the game itself. It's cool that a few mouse actions are available for those who want it, but it's definitely not for me, not for this game at least.
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0rion

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2017, 11:17:13 am »

The only thing that would ever make me quit DF is if the interface ever required a mouse. If I had to take my hands off the keyboard to touch the mouse even infrequently I'd be severely annoyed. And if it were all mouse-based, I'm worried my poor eyes would start to hate me. Right now all navigation and actions are purely muscle memory which makes it so much easier to focus on the game itself. It's cool that a few mouse actions are available for those who want it, but it's definitely not for me, not for this game at least.

I didn't think of it, but it's a very good point.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2017, 01:14:03 pm »

The only thing that would ever make me quit DF is if the interface ever required a mouse. If I had to take my hands off the keyboard to touch the mouse even infrequently I'd be severely annoyed. And if it were all mouse-based, I'm worried my poor eyes would start to hate me. Right now all navigation and actions are purely muscle memory which makes it so much easier to focus on the game itself. It's cool that a few mouse actions are available for those who want it, but it's definitely not for me, not for this game at least.
I certainly agree with that. On that note, stay VERY clear of the World Painter. It's one of the worst mouse only interfaces I've seen (there area alternatives, such as using spread sheets, which some people do. I've made my own script tool that's keyboard based and adds biome knowledge to it).
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Runaway_char

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2017, 03:24:54 pm »

I love dwarf fortress, and the graphics are part of the charm.  However, I wouldn't be opposed to a different control scheme.  I think that a bunch of the rhetoric surrounding df's learning curve is a bit exaggerated - thankfully, packs like lnp are helping get past the imposing reputation that's keeping new players away.  I wish people didn't insist on keeping games and gaming in general so exclusive, and this idea that if the game were more popular it would be worth less is abhorrent to me.
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Paxiecrunchle

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2017, 03:55:15 pm »

No, most people would welcome more user friendly graphics, it is why so many alternative tile sets exist. A better question would be ''would DF lose It's appeal if it actually had a simple tutorial'' ??? Going over say the controls, and how to start a farm, or something like, I am not the kind of person who likes to fail because I have no idea what I m doing, I preffer the failure to be a fault of my own stupidity, where I can look back and say ''I really should have known better'' or ''that was crazy, no on could have predicted that'' rather than as a result of ''I do not know how to make a military squad and there are zombies eating my everything AAAAAAA-''

That could just be me though.

Paxiecrunchle

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Re: Would df lose it's appeal ...?
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2017, 03:57:57 pm »

It would probably lose the appeal for some players. As mentioned, the limited graphics allows imagination to fill in the blanks, aided by rather detailed descriptive text.

However, it the only change was nicer graphics, the gain of appeal would probably far outweigh the loss of appeal (apart from those suffering from the change, of course). Tile sets make a great job of widening the appeal of the "graphics" (under the constraints of the underlying logic), and probably relieves a fair bit of pressure on Toady to update the "graphics".

An important reason for why the graphics are as simple as they are is that they do not add a huge update burden when DF mechanics are changed, and so leaves Toady to spend most of the effort on the DF mechanics, rather than spending half of it on updating graphics (and he's told the story of the precursor to DF with it's 3D graphics [attempt] as a warning example).

Likewise, the UI is crude and confusing not because it's intended to be, but because that's where it's ended up when the focus has been elsewhere. Toady isn't happy about the UI, but it's still not high on the agenda (and personally I'd rather have Myth & Magic as the arc after the upcoming one than a UI change one, but on the other hand I would be happy to eventually see a change to 16-32 bit "graphics", allowing for full tile sets, and it wouldn't hurt if the color range was expanded from 15 to 255 or RGB).

Wait DF had a 3d prequel? I had heard of Slaves Of Armok ...but is that what your talking about, and if so where can I find information about it? I also heard minecraft had initially been an attempt to make a 3d DF clone but I am sure that that is not what you are talking about.
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