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[Dragonborn]

What kinds of war animals will goblins bring in sieges in the current version?

My understanding is that goblin sieges now have to originate from somewhere and travel to your site.  They are no longer spawned out of thin air.

I started playing DF right before 42.06, I think.  From reading the wiki, I've learned that in days past, goblins used to ride all sorts of creatures during sieges.  Things like cave swallows, giant toads, etc.  I have only ever seen goblins riding beak dogs.  Is it possible for them to ride more exotic mounts anymore?  My guess is that since sieges originate from somewhere real, they will use animals that they have access to, so maybe cave swallows are difficult to come by.

So my questions are: a) has anyone recently seen goblins use anything other than beak dogs during sieges, and b) what conditions are necessary to see the more exotic mounts?

[PatrikLundell]

I've never seen any mounts other than beak dogs (they're common currently, but not present every time), and they started appearing in 0.42.X (I never saw any in 0.40.X, which is as far back as my experience reaches). I haven't heard of anyone seeing any of the exotic mounts in goblin sieges in 0.40.X onward (I'm not counting whatever may be the case in mods such as Masterworks).
I don't know about human or elven mounts, as I don't go to war against them, but presumably humans should use horses and elves a large variety of (giant?) animals.
I haven't seen any explanation for why goblins fail to show up with the exotic mounts they ought to have access to. They're all cavern critters, so it might be a case of a failure to get access to the caverns? It might be possible to hack exotic mount access in, but I'm not aware of anyone having tried to do so.
Goblins can get access to ogres (not as mounts, but as brute force troops like trolls) provided they start on evil plains and they're lucky with the RNG.

[FantasticDorf]

Goblins rely on their general (or modded in nobles with links to the demon leader) with [MILITARY_STRATEGY] to go out and tame monsters.

Code: [Select]

[POSITION:MONARCH]
[NAME_MALE:king:kings]
[NAME_FEMALE:queen:queens]
[NUMBER:1]
[SPOUSE_MALE:king consort:kings consort]
[SPOUSE_FEMALE:queen consort:queens consort]
[SUCCESSION:BY_HEIR]
[RESPONSIBILITY:LAW_MAKING]
[RESPONSIBILITY:RECEIVE_DIPLOMATS]
[RESPONSIBILITY:MILITARY_GOALS]
[PRECEDENCE:1]
[SPECIAL_BURIAL]
[RULES_FROM_LOCATION]
[MENIAL_WORK_EXEMPTION]
[MENIAL_WORK_EXEMPTION_SPOUSE]
[SLEEP_PRETENSION]
[PUNISHMENT_EXEMPTION]
[FLASHES]
[BRAG_ON_KILL]
[CHAT_WORTHY]
[DO_NOT_CULL]
[KILL_QUEST]
[EXPORTED_IN_LEGENDS]
[DETERMINES_COIN_DESIGN]
[COLOR:5:0:1]
[ACCOUNT_EXEMPT]
[DUTY_BOUND]
[DEMAND_MAX:10]
[MANDATE_MAX:5]
[REQUIRED_BOXES:10]
[REQUIRED_CABINETS:5]
[REQUIRED_RACKS:5]
[REQUIRED_STANDS:5]
[REQUIRED_OFFICE:10000]
[REQUIRED_BEDROOM:10000]
[REQUIRED_DINING:10000]
[REQUIRED_TOMB:10000]
[POSITION:GENERAL]
[NAME:general:generals]
[NUMBER:1]
[SQUAD:10:soldier:soldiers]
[APPOINTED_BY:MONARCH]
[RESPONSIBILITY:MILITARY_STRATEGY] // <-- Important for getting tamed creatures
[COMMANDER:LIEUTENANT:ALL]
[PRECEDENCE:50]
[SPECIAL_BURIAL]
[MENIAL_WORK_EXEMPTION]
[SLEEP_PRETENSION]
[PUNISHMENT_EXEMPTION]
[FLASHES]
[BRAG_ON_KILL]
[CHAT_WORTHY]
[DO_NOT_CULL]
[KILL_QUEST]
[ACCOUNT_EXEMPT]
[DUTY_BOUND]
[DEMAND_MAX:2]
[REQUIRED_BOXES:2]
[REQUIRED_CABINETS:1]
[REQUIRED_RACKS:3]
[REQUIRED_STANDS:3]
[REQUIRED_OFFICE:500]
[REQUIRED_BEDROOM:250]
[REQUIRED_DINING:250]
[REQUIRED_TOMB:1]
The demon [MONARCH] & goblin [GENERAL] have exactly the same raws as the dwarven equivilent (no proof to determine otherwise) and generate from the [EVIL] entity's [VARIABLE_POSITIONS:ALL] & [SITE_VARIABLE_POSITIONS:ALL] tags. If it is not renewed.

• If goblins start on evil glacier/tundra biomes, they'll also bring blizzard men

A simple fix is to just make more nobles locally or add the [GENERAL] position from dwarves onto the goblin civ so that a general is consistently picked.

[PatrikLundell]

Hm, interesting info, FantasticDorf.

I wasn't aware goblins could use blizzard men (in fact, I've never seen one).

I've never really understood the goblin mount relation to the EVIL tag, as e.g. Giant Cave Swallows do not seem to be aligned with evil. If dwarven and goblin generals are the same, why do not dwarves tame cave animals? Is it because they can't ride?

So, if I understand you correctly, the [VARIABLE_POSITIONS:ALL] causes generals to appear only some of the time (while the demon overlord somehow seems to be present at all times unless killed and replaced), and ensuring a general is present (or some modded equivalent) should ensure goblins get mounts from what's available in the caverns in their starting location?

[FantasticDorf]

Evil mounts are non relevant, [EVIL] only applies to employing similar [EVIL] semi intelligents. I've personally modded beakdogs to be exotic pets, and elves still manage to tame them from the wilds irregardless. (its more a biome tag than a hardline tag)

Yes you're correct, monarchs have succession (of sorts) but generals tend to not be replaced as often albiet it seems infrequently with reports of never being replaced, i opened a bug report about it here for much the same reason.

[Dragonborn]

Interesting info.  So it sounds like it's possible, just not very likely, because of the lack of generals.

I'm hoping this is officially fixed at some point.  It'd be nice to have some variety by having to prepare for sieges with aerial attacks.  It would also be great to see aquatic mounts, if only to witness first hand the hilarious bug where aquatic mounts unintentionally drown their riders

[Fleeting Frames]

Makes sense and can confirm the blizzard men part. Just tested in 43.03 and got

4: Kugmemato, "Baseswraith", dark fortress
   Owner: The Invisible Wickedness, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Ignited Monster, goblins
   lord: Stosb–b Wraithshakes, goblin
   10129 goblins
   1 lizard devil
   2522 trolls
   2522 blizzard men
   2522 beak dogs
   7 goblin outcasts

In exported pops (just took SWIMMERD's glacier gen, removed seeds and made it evil).

Then added some evil plains

||

 and got both blizzards and ogres simultaneously

2: Tuloatu, "Dredgefly", dark fortress
   Owner: The Spiders of Light, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Menace of Sensing, goblins
   lady: Stozu Fungiscorpions the Paddle of Enchantment, goblin
   10296 goblins
   1 mole brute
   2524 trolls
   2524 ogres
   2524 blizzard men
   2524 beak dogs
   4 goblin outcasts

Hm, so from now on new worldgen aim.

[h27kim]

What kinds of war animals will goblins bring in sieges in the current version?

My understanding is that goblin sieges now have to originate from somewhere and travel to your site.  They are no longer spawned out of thin air.

I started playing DF right before 42.06, I think.  From reading the wiki, I've learned that in days past, goblins used to ride all sorts of creatures during sieges.  Things like cave swallows, giant toads, etc.  I have only ever seen goblins riding beak dogs.  Is it possible for them to ride more exotic mounts anymore?  My guess is that since sieges originate from somewhere real, they will use animals that they have access to, so maybe cave swallows are difficult to come by.

So my questions are: a) has anyone recently seen goblins use anything other than beak dogs during sieges, and b) what conditions are necessary to see the more exotic mounts?

I think attackers need to have a population of pets/mounts where they come from to bring them after 40.xx.  I've hardly ever seen gobbos with war animals, but I've checked in the legends that, for some reason, I never faced a goblin civ with a beak dog population (or anything else, besides trolls that is).  I've seen human sieges with horses and war dogs, but even that has been relatively rare--again, only if the site that's sending the siegers have dogs and horses, as per legends.

[PatrikLundell]

I've seen beak dogs frequently since Toady did the latest mount fix, and I think beak dogs are now handled similarly to dwarven/human domestic animals, i.e. they can be present regardless of biome access (I've definitely got them from siegers based on evil plains, and I think beak dogs are swamp creatures).