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[TopHat]

Oh my, this looks interesting. PTW.

[NUKE9.13]

Like I said before, a key game mechanic seems to be the tight coupling between the three hab types and the three classes. So no new hab types, only modifications to existing ones. And the lower class' living conditions can't be improved.

I mean, Ghaz already said it was on account of how he "can't be bothered to keep track"- so, no, that is post-hoc reasoning.

I understand that the lower class is going to live in squalor. But I don't see why they have to live in structurally unsound squalor.

I think my main problem here is one of immersion. By creating this entirely arbitrary problem, Ghaz is breaking the fourth wall.
It is completely clear that no one intended to modify the standard Hab Block, but rather wanted to design a new sort of building- something which we previously had no indication of being impossible. By willfully ignoring the intent of the action- again, based on a rule that we didn't (couldn't) know about (if someone does something stupid despite the fact that they should've known better, then Ghaz is well within his rights to interpret their actions in a way they didn't intend), Ghaz is reducing the challenge of the game from "This spire is a fucking dystopian mess, good luck trying to keep it from burning to the ground" to "The GM is a bastard"- which is what I mean by him breaking the fourth wall; I expected an in-game challenge, and am now being presented with an out-of-game one.

[Maximum Spin]

I mean, Ghaz already said it was on account of how he "can't be bothered to keep track"- so, no, that is post-hoc reasoning.

I think the two can be equivalent. "The three classes were designed to correspond to the three hab types, so I can't be bothered to keep track of more hab types and how they would fit into the class system." I can't possibly know whether Ghazkull was thinking this, but it is the impression I got.

I understand that the lower class is going to live in squalor. But I don't see why they have to live in structurally unsound squalor.

Makes sense to me. There are only so many resources to go around, and we just cannot practically maintain their buildings, especially since they weren't necessarily built soundly in the first place. Even if you fixed them up, they'd just slowly start failing again.

I think my main problem here is one of immersion. By creating this entirely arbitrary problem, Ghaz is breaking the fourth wall.

I think that's called "being a game".

It is completely clear that no one intended to modify the standard Hab Block, but rather wanted to design a new sort of building- something which we previously had no indication of being impossible. By willfully ignoring the intent of the action- again, based on a rule that we didn't (couldn't) know about (if someone does something stupid despite the fact that they should've known better, then Ghaz is well within his rights to interpret their actions in a way they didn't intend), Ghaz is reducing the challenge of the game from "This spire is a fucking dystopian mess, good luck trying to keep it from burning to the ground" to "The GM is a bastard"- which is what I mean by him breaking the fourth wall; I expected an in-game challenge, and am now being presented with an out-of-game one.

I mean, sure, he could've made the rules clearer to begin with, but now that we know the rule "any attempt to make a new hab type will be interpreted as modifying an existing one to that purpose" exists, I don't know what you're complaining about. It's a reasonable rule. The very first set of actions all got tweaked from their original intent to fit Ghazkull's preferences, so it's not as if we couldn't see this possibility coming. And regarding "well within his rights", it's his game, he's well within his rights to do literally anything with it.

[Ghazkull]

@Nuke my answer there was mostly the petulant annoyed answer to your petulant annoying question.

But since a Gm-nope counts for shit these days let me explain myself: The reason the Flare-Stacks are in and the Pod Living is not, is in part yes: i can't be bothered to keep track of more. That is pretty much a guiding principle when i set up rules: how much can i be bothered to keep track of and still run the game without throwing fits?

I never stated anywhere that i have to accept any or all of your proposals for buildings. I have a large number of buildings pre-prepared for you to discover which as far as i can tell mesh into the gameplay. The Flare-Stacks for one were an amazing idea, are easily implemented and add to existing gameplay where none previously was without causing much balancing issues or things to keep track of.

The Pod-Living is simply a lazy-man option to avoid having to deal with hub expansion and slums. That aside it screws with gameplay, would be replaced by better options and later stages anyway and overall would be me simply appeasing you by attaching a useless piece of extra things to keep track of which is not really necessary in the first place.

That being said i was not ignoring the intent of the action, i was telling people what that action would amount to since it doesn't work with the mechanics, mind it isn't even in the turn yet, so i did that for the purpose of telling that person what would happen if they kept that action and giving them the chance to change it if they want to.

As for the reason Why slums exist, why you can't simply go away with them and so forth is simple:

The Habs are already your lower class living. People already live in flats with 20 squaremeteres for five to ten people. Slums is for the myriads of people you simply can't handle. They live in structurally unsound squalor because your entire reasources are already comitted to the hubs and the arcology and no matter how far you stretched them you could not fix up the slums on top of that too.

Anyway, update in a few days.

[Ghazkull]

Second Cycle

High Society Issue Fulfilled!

And so two hundred thousand more people swamped the bureaucracy of your Spire. This time your Hive was even more overcrowded, barely able to contain this bloody mess the hab-blocks were refurbished once more, people crammed ever tighter into smaller living spaces. Hab Blocks once the ideal of middle-class living have turned into cell-sized living arrangements in which oftimes entire families had to somehow live and breathe. It is a place where sickness, crime and all kinds of other hazards spread rapidly.

And unsuprisingly its a place where your wealthier citizens, especially the essential ones to running the spire don't want to live. The Engineers have popped up. Their first order of business demands for improved living conditions exclusively for them.

So who are the Engineers? You remember the Middle-Class from before? They are them. They are the Maintenance Workers, Engineers, Security Staff and so forth. The Middle-Class is now your lower class of factory workers, maintenance and service personnel. Basically your entire Lower Class.

Speaking of Factories. You have developed them, Factory Complexes take up an entire level of your hive and produce a large amount of heat and money.

Simultaneously Proper Utilities appear in your hive: Maintenance Access Facilities take up an entire level of your hive but allow further utilities to be placed within 50 Z-Levels (up and down) of it. Together with it you gained your first Utility: Venting. Venting is bought per level and redirects heat optimally. Beware the Squatters however.

Speaking of Squatters and Heat. Newly introduced Flare-Stacks can be bought per level, allowing the controlled off-burning of various Hive levels at the cost of heat per block burnt. High Bureaucrat forfend that anyone would use this for evil purposes. Flare-Stacks also function as a utility.

In any case even as you press the crowded people into ever more cramped living conditions you noticed that suddenly...you have space...and to SPARE! People from the Slums rapidly scramble to move into these new living spaces no matter how cramped they are, leaving behind A good half-dozen of Abandoned Slums. Nobody knew what caused the collapse, many say it was a freak accident, other that it was clearly an inside job by militant Gentrificators.

Whatever it was a chain reaction caused mass collapses in the abandoned Slums, two entire blocks of them even collapsing on top of an agri-complex, which despite the efforts of local maintenance technicians didn't survive the ordeal.

The entire mess gathered at the very bottom of the spire, a ruinous uninhabitable mess of debris that would take monumentous effort to remove. Ruins



Collapsing Slums cause widespread disaster and ruin one Agri-Complex
Unlocked Ruins
Unlocked Overcrowded Hab-Blocks
Unlocked Flare Stacks
Unlocked Maintenance Access Facilities
Unlocked Venting
Unlocked Factory Complexes
Satisfying the High Society has increased Your Spire Build Allowance to 10 (each player may now make two building actions)

Spoiler:  Issues this turn (click to show/hide)

Immigrants: 1 Million

High Bureaucracy: The War demands resources, establish at least two Factory Hubs (two turns time)
High Society: Arcology Decree (aka the mission you had for the past two cycles) + We feel not very secure, do something about it.
Engineers: WE WANT HOMES - for at least fifty thousand people! (two turns time)
Lower Class: SOLVE THE FOOD CRISIS
:

Spoiler:  General Information (click to show/hide)

Your Spire Width Allowance is 5
Your Spire Build Allowance is 10
Your Reform (read Actions) Allowance is 4

Finances
Previous: 107 Creds
Taxes: 300 Creds
Maintenance: -27 Creds
Construction: -14 Creds
__________________
Total: 366 Creds

Food
-100!!!!

Hive Population
Total: 310k (Living Space: 360k)
Upper Class: 10k (10k)
Middle Class: 0k
Lower Class: 300k (350k)

Spoiler:  The Arcology (click to show/hide)

Level 8
empty, empty, Arcology, empty, empty
Level 7
empty, empty, Hab-Block, empty, empty
Level 6
empty, empty, Hab-Block, empty, empty
Level 5
empty, empty, Hab-Block, empty, empty
Level 4
empty, empty, Hab-Block, empty, empty
Level 3
empty, empty, Hab-Block, empty, empty
Level 2
Agri-Block,empty, Hab-Block,empty, empty

Level 1
Agri-Block, Ruins(2), Hab-Block,Ruins(3), Ruins(3)

Spoiler:  Known Building Blocks (click to show/hide)

Arcology - a completely autarkic almost utopian living-environment. Can sustain exactly 10k people Cost: 10 Creds, Maintenance: Pays itself, Food: Pays itself, Taxes: 0
Overcrowded Hab Block - a stable block for habitation of the lower-classes, Living Space? What is Living Space?
Can sustain 50k people Cost: 1 Cred, Maintenance: 1 Cred, Food: -50, Taxes: 50 Creds
Slum - jury-rigged constructions by the lower-classes to live somewhere. Can sustain 10 k people, appear automatically. Food: -10, Taxes: 10 Creds
Agri Farm Block - an agricultural plot. needs sunlight or access to 10 heat. Cost: 10 Creds, Maintenance: 10 Creds, Food: 100 Taxes: 0
Nutrient Paste Fabricator - Fabrication plot. Produces Food. Cost: 20 Creds, Maintenance: 20 Creds, Food: 100 Taxes: 0
Abandoned Slum - abandoned by its inhabitants, these slums have fallen into disrepair, they are a construction danger.
Ruins - Results of fires, collapses and similiar catastrophes, ruins are the compressed remains of abandoned and lost parts of the spire. They gather at the very Bottom of it and are EXTREMELY hard and costly to remove...better to build on top of it.
Maintenance Access Facility - Provides access to local utilities. Covers 5 Blocks. Allows construction of utilities withint 50 z-levels. Cost: 50, Creds Maintenance: 10 Creds
XFactory Hub - Massive Factory Complex. Covers 5 Blocks. Massive Heat Output. Requires Access to Hab-Blocks (5 of them). Cost: 50 Creds, Taxes: 100 Creds

Utilities

Venting - Redistributes Heat Optimally. If the Hive is overcrowded people may live in there, causing heat blowouts. Cost: 50 Creds, Maintenance: 10 Creds
Flare Stacks - Allows controlled burning of blocks, which also reduces Heat-Levels for a single turn if connected to venting. Cost: 50 Creds, Maintenance: 10 Creds

Spoiler:  Hive Looks (click to show/hide)

Level 8: __A__
Level 7: __H__
Level 6: __H__
Level 5: __H__
Level 4: __H__
Level 3: __H__
Level 2: F_H__
Level 1: FRHRR

((okay i think ive gotten everything and hope i did not miss anyone out. I merged the Maintenance and Heat Reform since you would have gotten both together anyway. Also don't worry immigration will taper off eventually.))

EDIT: (FYI: those who think this is already turning into a mess do not fret this will only be this way in the beginning there are chances to develop the hive into a more noblebright place as the game progresses, these are however mid-game unlocks)

[Kashyyk]

Can the flare stack burn off ruins, or does it just avoid creating them?

[Jilladilla]

Alright... So Ghazkull, how structurally stable are the ruins? Are we shooting ourselves in the foot by just building on top of it instead of biting the bullet and trying to clear it out in the imminent future?

Also, for the Factory Block, it says that it needs access to 5 Hab Blocks, but define 'access', do you mean directly adjacent? Or merely connected, like how Arcologies can sort of do for purposes of being considered at the top?
(Do Factories connect to each other for these purposes too? Like say, Level 1: Factory, Level 2: Another Factory, Level 3+: Giant pole of Habs; would that be ok?)

Still, trying to achieve all of the issues this turn will almost certainly require some very fancy acrobatics... Now, can those of us at Bay12 do so, is the question...

Oh right, Ghazkull, edit the 'General Information' Spoiler with our new build allowance?

[Madman198237]

Arcology Revamp
With the mindboggling ridiculous failure of the bureaucracy to approve a new form of housing block, the only remaining recourse is to renovate the Arcologies to provide additional food, through the inclusion of some 'decorative' hydroponics and also some miniaturized heat-farms scattered around in rarely-visited places.

[Maximum Spin]

Reform: Ice / Is Also Great / And Will Suffice
Overflowing with heaped slums built by weird, smelly immigrants from god-knows-where who won't stop putting their grubby fingers all over your pretty arcology? Cryocorp can help! Our advanced cryonic suspension facilities will allow you to keep not 1000, not 10,000, but 100,000 people in cold storage indefinitely* for every facility built! True, they may cost a lot to keep them cold, and produce a lot of heat while doing so (thanks, thermodynamics), all while yielding no tax revenue and probably upsetting the suspended individuals' friends and family, but they sure do store 100k people without requiring food indefinitely*.


*cryonic suspension has not been tested for safety for periods longer than three days

[milo christiansen]

PTW

[VoidSlayer]

Uhhhh, I see no way to fulfill the food requirement...

Maybe if we make ourselves useful we can stop this insane immigrant flow?

Not sure if this is how we place factories, or if this is close enough to hab blocks, but... build a factory like this?

Level 8: __A__
Level 7: __H__
Level 6: __H__
Level 5: __H__
Level 4: __HF_
Level 3: __HFF
Level 2: F_HFF
Level 1: FRHRR

[Taricus]

Um, Ghaz? The farms and the factories share a letter icon, which is gonna make things confusing. And Voidslayer we do hae the ability to complete the food problem, we just have to build all farms this turn and upgrade the effectiveness of those farms. That aside factories also take up a full Z-level of the hive, so slapping it sideways isn't going to help.

Anyway, action time:
Comfortable Habs: With the lack of middle class habitation modules available to us, and the arcology tech being far too expensive for general use and inefficient space-wise we have gone back to the plans of the original modules and revised them. While still housing more people than the original designs, the fact that it only supports roughly 40% of the lower class habblocks means there's a lot more legroom for what inhabitants there are, as well as some effort into making it... well, generally nice and looking middle class too.

[Ghazkull]

okay sorting through stuff, Factory Hubs have no the shorthand X isntead of F.

Ruins are structurally as sound as can be, they won't collapse further and cause no problems. In short they are compacted debris, almost forming solid underground for buildings.

Also, for the Factory Block, it says that it needs access to 5 Hab Blocks, but define 'access', do you mean directly adjacent? Or merely connected, like how Arcologies can sort of do for purposes of being considered at the top?
(Do Factories connect to each other for these purposes too? Like say, Level 1: Factory, Level 2: Another Factory, Level 3+: Giant pole of Habs; would that be ok?)

Yes to all of those. As in merely connected.

@VoidSlayer nope factories have to be one horizontal Z-Level

@Kashyyk they can not burn off Ruins. They wiill hwoever help preventing them.

@Maximum Spin: sorry but Cryogenic Suspension is not a thing. That would make things too easy

Anyway Comfortable Hubs and Agricologies are both possible, they are however merely alleviating the problem not solving it. But yeah possible anyway.

[andrea]

ok, this immigration stuff is insane. We may barely be able to do it, but I am very concerned about heat management. We can't fit enough farms either, unless we want to allow slums around the arcology. However, if we neglect maintenance and vents, we can fit a good number of farms such that we may hope to get through this turn with reforms.
I tried drafting a proposal (new things are in italics), but I am very concerned about that spire, and the massive sprawl of slums that will be formed.
For some reason I though that in a build action we could make 2 modules.
With just 10 modules available, we have no way to keep arcology up. lets just get food and factories and prepare for slum invasion.

Spoiler: UTTERLY WRONG (click to show/hide)

Level 8: __A__
Level X: __H__
Level X: __H__
Level X: __H__
Level X: __H__
Level X: __H__
Level X: __H__
Level X: __H__
Level X: __H__
Level X: __H__
Level X: __H__
Level 7: __H__
Level 6: __H__
Level 5: F_H__
Level 4: F_H__
Level 3: F_H__
Level 3: F_H__
Level 2: FFFFF
Level 3: XXXXX
Level 2: XXXXX
Level 1: FRHRR
[/quote]

[Taricus]

We should hold on any factory development until we have the current issues sorted. Firstly, we need more farms, and we need to make them better, and secondly we need to build up layers of ventilation and low-class habs in preparation for next turn's factory building.