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Author Topic: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF  (Read 2903 times)

Eschar

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Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« on: October 09, 2017, 04:54:30 pm »

Dwarf Fortress, technically, is not a game. A game will have a winning and losing side or a win and lose condition. DF only has a losing condition. The game as a whole is not winnable; the only victories are those sub-things, like beatings off that goblin attack or finally getting some impressive contraption to work.
DF is complex enough that in the end, all fortresses will die; they will meet the game's losing condition.

But there will be many victories on the way there.
Good luck to your fortresses, venerable Bay12ers.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 12:48:18 pm by Eschar »
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feelotraveller

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2017, 04:13:54 am »

Check your preconceptions at the door, please.  I'll see your definintion and raise you Cat's Cradle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%27s_cradle.  To cite another example: the contemporary - well known but much hated - game No Man's Sky has no win condition, and only a lose condition when playing permadeath.

Defining 'game' is very much disputed territory (follow the internal link in Wikipedia to get started).  I get many laughs from looking at some of those definitions and how they turn themselves inside out trying to account for cases without 'winning' - e.g., "it's not a game it's a toy", yeah right.

Most games that we are currently familiar with have win/lose conditions but that says more about the society-culture that they take place in rather than the nature of games themselves.

tl;dr  Noooooo!  Dwarf Fortess is a game.   ;)
 
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Eschar

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2017, 12:56:31 pm »

Check your preconceptions at the door, please.  I'll see your definintion and raise you Cat's Cradle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%27s_cradle.  To cite another example: the contemporary - well known but much hated - game No Man's Sky has no win condition, and only a lose condition when playing permadeath.

Defining 'game' is very much disputed territory (follow the internal link in Wikipedia to get started).  I get many laughs from looking at some of those definitions and how they turn themselves inside out trying to account for cases without 'winning' - e.g., "it's not a game it's a toy", yeah right.

Most games that we are currently familiar with have win/lose conditions but that says more about the society-culture that they take place in rather than the nature of games themselves.

tl;dr  Noooooo!  Dwarf Fortess is a game.   ;)
These are good points. DF as a whole, though, has no win condition.
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Robsoie

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2017, 01:28:28 pm »

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StagnantSoul

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2017, 05:02:33 pm »

This game used to have a you win! screen, we've evolved past that primitive state of gaming.
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KittyTac

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2017, 09:22:43 pm »

This game used to have a you win! screen, we've evolved past that primitive state of gaming.

Used to? Innnteresting. Can you tell me more?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2017, 09:26:12 pm »

This game used to have a you win! screen, we've evolved past that primitive state of gaming.

Used to? Innnteresting. Can you tell me more?
"You dug too far. Game over." Or some such un-fun thing.
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Eschar

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2017, 03:33:03 pm »

This game used to have a you win! screen, we've evolved past that primitive state of gaming.

Used to? Innnteresting. Can you tell me more?
"You dug too far. Game over." Or some such un-fun thing.
Yeah, who wants the game to end like that? We want to earn an ending, not have it suddenly happen like that.

Edit: I realized you might be referring to defeat by HFS.
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Miuramir

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 05:16:18 pm »

Dwarf Fortress, technically, is not a game. A game will have a winning and losing side or a win and lose condition. ...

Your (Eschar's) definition of "game" is both limited, and not well attested.  A quick perusal of various definitions of what a "game" is have very few mentions of winning and loosing.  I suggest you read over the Wikipedia entry on "Game" for an initial start on some better, or at least more interesting and respected, definitions of what makes something a "game". 

Some highlights:

French sociologist Roger Caillois defines a game as an activity that must have the following characteristics:
  • fun: the activity is chosen for its light-hearted character
  • separate: it is circumscribed in time and place
  • uncertain: the outcome of the activity is unforeseeable
  • non-productive: participation does not accomplish anything useful
  • governed by rules: the activity has rules that are different from everyday life
  • fictitious: it is accompanied by the awareness of a different reality
I'd say it's reasonably clear that DF qualifies on all of Caillois' criteria.

Greg Costikyan: "A game is a form of art in which participants, termed players, make decisions in order to manage resources through game tokens in the pursuit of a goal."

DF seems to qualify here.

Bernard Suits: "to play a game is to engage in activity directed toward bringing about a specific state of affairs, using only means permitted by specific rules, where the means permitted by the rules are more limited in scope than they would be in the absence of the rules, and where the sole reason for accepting such limitation is to make possible such activity."

DF usually qualifies here; one could make arguments that DF is vague on the "specific state of affairs" clause, but with a bit more abstract though goals such as to survive to the next caravan, to learn more about how DF works, to finally get a viable fort with an egglaying race, or whatever are as valid as conquer hell or build a 200' tall dwarf statue out of ice with lava running through it. 

Chris Crawford defines a game by classifying a bunch of other stuff that are not games:
  • Creative expression is art if made for its own beauty, and entertainment if made for money.
  • A piece of entertainment is a plaything if it is interactive. Movies and books are cited as examples of non-interactive entertainment.
  • If no goals are associated with a plaything, it is a toy. (Crawford notes that by his definition, (a) a toy can become a game element if the player makes up rules, and (b) The Sims and SimCity are toys, not games.) If it has goals, a plaything is a challenge.
  • If a challenge has no "active agent against whom you compete," it is a puzzle; if there is one, it is a conflict. (Crawford admits that this is a subjective test. Video games with noticeably algorithmic artificial intelligence can be played as puzzles; these include the patterns used to evade ghosts in Pac-Man.)
  • Finally, if the player can only outperform the opponent, but not attack them to interfere with their performance, the conflict is a competition. (Competitions include racing and figure skating.) However, if attacks are allowed, then the conflict qualifies as a game.

Crawford's definition may thus be rendered as: an interactive, goal-oriented activity made for money, with active agents to play against, in which players (including active agents) can interfere with each other.

Weirdly enough, DF is most questionable on the first criteria; DF was started before money was involved, and is in the permanent collection of the Museum of Modern Art ; one could make a case that earlier versions of DF were therefore art, and under that definition not a game.  While I think most of Crawford's definition of a game is fairly good, I object to the initial exclusion of art-for-art's-sake from not only games, but entertainment, etc.  (The definition is also a bit suspect when you get to such things as student projects (whether movies or games) for a grade, rather than for money; at the least I'd posit that it should be updated to "entertainment if made for a tangible reward such as money, academic status, professional advancement, etc.")

There are plenty of other definitions of what constitutes a "game", but I think you will find that DF qualifies under the majority of them.  The primary exception is where the definers choose to define things that are done for the joy of doing them, or created for the beauty of the result, to be in some purer sense "art"; and DF is close to the edge there. 
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Bumber

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2017, 11:58:06 pm »

Weirdly enough, DF is most questionable on the first criteria; DF was started before money was involved, and is in the permanent collection of the Museum of Modern Art ; one could make a case that earlier versions of DF were therefore art, and under that definition not a game.  While I think most of Crawford's definition of a game is fairly good, I object to the initial exclusion of art-for-art's-sake from not only games, but entertainment, etc.  (The definition is also a bit suspect when you get to such things as student projects (whether movies or games) for a grade, rather than for money; at the least I'd posit that it should be updated to "entertainment if made for a tangible reward such as money, academic status, professional advancement, etc.")
I find the whole rule suspect. Is da Vinci's The Last Supper not a work of art because it was commissioned by a duke?
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KittyTac

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2017, 12:12:26 am »

THERE WILL BE FIGHTING
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2017, 12:17:16 am »

PTW.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2017, 01:10:00 am »

Chris Crawford defines a game by classifying a bunch of other stuff that are not games:
So, given the source, I can safely assume that, whatever else may be in the world, this is completely wrong.
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Eschar

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2017, 04:50:38 pm »

Enough! I have seen the light of DF's game-nature.

You have done the truly unthinkable; you've changed someone's mind in an Internet argument.
I thought we agreed that was impossible!
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Thorfinn

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Re: Tiny Musing on the Nature of DF
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2017, 12:47:07 pm »

I'm starting to think of it less as a game and more of an activity, maybe even a pastime.
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