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[Shonai_Dweller]

300? The largest sites have populations of around 10,000.

LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAG. Maybe that person only plays in small worlds like me.

Yeeaahh. Not a fan of plodding around 10,000 pop towns myself. And certainly not Dark Fortresses! Although I do like the concept.
Largest pop town (and indeed the largest site overall) in my current world is a tiny 5145 (or 5240 including visitors and 'outcasts'). But well over half the towns are over 1000. World is only 175 years old.

[KittyTac]

300? The largest sites have populations of around 10,000.

LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAG. Maybe that person only plays in small worlds like me.

Yeeaahh. Not a fan of plodding around 10,000 pop towns myself. And certainly not Dark Fortresses! Although I do like the concept.
Largest pop town (and indeed the largest site overall) in my current world is a tiny 5145 (or 5240 including visitors and 'outcasts'). But well over half the towns are over 1000. World is only 175 years old.

As far as I remember, in my worlds, total histfig population is about 3000.

[Shonai_Dweller]

300? The largest sites have populations of around 10,000.

LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAG. Maybe that person only plays in small worlds like me.

Yeeaahh. Not a fan of plodding around 10,000 pop towns myself. And certainly not Dark Fortresses! Although I do like the concept.
Largest pop town (and indeed the largest site overall) in my current world is a tiny 5145 (or 5240 including visitors and 'outcasts'). But well over half the towns are over 1000. World is only 175 years old.

As far as I remember, in my worlds, total histfig population is about 3000.

Histfigs or pop? There's a big difference.
Sorry, derail.

Um...

Human only worlds could do with some reasons for civs to hate each other as they dont get the benefit of common sense 'everyone knows dwarves hate gobbos and don't get along with hippy elves'.

But I think I already said that.

[Cathar]

I play in a medium world with some ten civilizations. Some ... 3000 HF per civilizations, the most heavily populated being a goblin dark fortresss with 3000 inhabitants. This is due to goblins living forever and having a huge tendency to overreproduce in the absence of..ehm...predators? If we can call dwarves like that.

Human populations usually stagnate between 80 and 300 per hamlet, some 1200 for towns but that's pretty rare to reach those numbers due to the number of wars.

But even if 10K people, which are a very rare sight (not seen in my world)...that's the size of a small town in modern days. Sure everyone may not know everyone, but it's still to small to have segregated minorities

Edit :

common sense 'everyone knows dwarves hate gobbos and don't get along with hippy elves'.

That is simply not true. I have that civilization, far north, under dwarven rules where goblins make up 30% of their total population, live with the dwarves in harmony, and some even have noble titles. Common fantasy sense doesnt applies that strictly in DF

[Shonai_Dweller]

It's about the size of York in the middle ages. Smaller than London though.

And who said anything about segregated communities? We're talking civ 1 hate civ 2 because they're "heathens". Someone wanders into town looking like the stereotypical image of a civ 2 person, gets spat at.

Then sexism, which is perhaps something for when politics is fleshed out. Or not.

[Cathar]

And who said anything about segregated communities? We're talking civ 1 hate civ 2 because they're "heathens". Someone wanders into town looking like the stereotypical image of a civ 2 person, gets spat at.

You'll find out that's precisely what happens if civ 1 is at odds with civ 2. Wander into a town of a hostile civilization and people won't get super kind to you. What do you propose to add to this?

Then sexism, which is perhaps something for when politics is fleshed out. Or not.

Do anyone really consider opening that can of worm?

[Shonai_Dweller]

And who said anything about segregated communities? We're talking civ 1 hate civ 2 because they're "heathens". Someone wanders into town looking like the stereotypical image of a civ 2 person, gets spat at.

You'll find out that's precisely what happens if civ 1 is at odds with civ 2. Wander into a town of a hostile civilization and people won't get super kind to you. What do you propose to add to this?

Then sexism, which is perhaps something for when politics is fleshed out. Or not.

Do anyone really consider opening that can of worm?

We're having this discussion because Toady brought it up...

[Cathar]

Which doesn't answer my question. What do you propose to add to this?

[Shonai_Dweller]

Townspeople judging you (correctly or otherwise) by your looks and your clothes rather than your hard-coded babysnatcher tags.

[VislarRn]

I think bringing up about town size and segregation is not really applicable logic here, because DF is bringing simulated world into smaller scale, simply for better gameplay and simplicity.

Another thing we have to consider is, these kind of cultural and societal details won't be applied to DF before 5-10 years. So it takes lot of time till we actually get there. And since this topic is heavily loaded with political beliefs, i'd say we don't even know what kind of political climate we stand in 10 years, since at the moment one of the arguments against applying this type of game mechanic is mostly/also political one. Looking at current trends, it might be totally possible that bringing up these sensitive topics is possible in 10 years. I personally think that those sexism and prejudiced minorities based arguments might be anachronism in quite near future. When cultural taboos are dissolved, all these topics wouldn't bring shame to the game anymore. So what might be can of worms at the moment, might not be so in the future.

Even though I don't like it, I have to admit, all games have to fit themselves into some kind of political/cultural paradigm. And when they don't, it's going to get negative attention. But we are living in age where these paradigms are changing in extreme rate, so we can only speculate what's going to be in the near future. And we shouldn't take ourselves so seriously here, because at the moment game needs more basic mechanics like magic, law and economics which is going to take time.

[Shonai_Dweller]

I don't think much will change. As I recall, the world was full of hate back in the 'olden days' too.

[Cathar]

I don't have any belief on the topic one way or another. My point is and was ; it's already simulated - somehow and don't really need an urgent update. Maybe one could argue it could be fleshed out, but it seems trivial to me compared to other needed updates. Magic and riding, just to name the one who come to mind immediately.

As it stands I'm holy unconvinced this is a needed update, and since I already said my piece on the topic I'll leave you there

[VislarRn]

I don't think much will change. As I recall, the world was full of hate back in the 'olden days' too.

I actually never meant that world is going to get magically better. I meant that every society has some cultural taboo that bases itself on some kind of perceived threat. In 80s we had satanic panic, in 90s 00s we had Marilyn Manson and similar types who were edgy and threatening the norms. Now, nobody sees these threats anymore. In 2012 we had sexists, nazis, classical conservatives with their prejudices. In 2014 there was Gamergate and people started seeing this taboo as a political clichι. So the pendulum is shifting to other side.
I don't know what's going to be taboo and threat in 2027, but everything is constantly changing and there is no need to plan the future so much with our current mentalities.

[Runaway_char]

I think if df is going to implement prejudice, it should be based on culture (i.e. not all civs have the same prejudice) and should not be hardcoded to reflect real life prejudices.  Sociology tells us that things like racism, transphobia, and sexism is a social construct - by that logic, a dwarven civ could as easily discriminate against people with emerald eyes or braided hair, and might define  "races" or even genders by that metric, not necessarily considering skin color or sexual dimorphism like our modern culture does.

[Dyret]

Not sure why this is a controversial topic. 'Prejudice' in some form is kinda necessary to keep the drama ball rolling (most wars happen right now because most people are intolerant fucks prejudiced against stealing babies), especially when in-civ/fortress politics become a thing. That doesn't mean you have to or should bring awkward real life stuff into it. Like maybe the Society of Pears really hate the Oar of Slapping for killing their holy dude in a time before time, or maybe everyone knows people from Boulderholes are untrustworthy because that one titan associated with lies waddled through there once. Maybe Dwarves and Elves really hate each other, or maybe they're besties 4 lyfe, who knows, let worldgen decide!