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Author Topic: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...  (Read 3528 times)

Immortal-D

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This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« on: September 16, 2017, 01:16:07 pm »

Edit 2: Ok, the trick here is 'add conditions from products', which is apparently different from the initial 'item conditions'.  TIL :-[

Although I have not used this system in some time, I was certain I had this one right.

Produce 30 Rock Mechanisms.  Condition: If number of available items less than 8, check monthly.  It has been several months now, and the order remains stuck on 'Checking'.  What am I missing here?  Edit: The WO says 'not satisfied for next check', yet my stocks menu shows I only have 5 mechanisms available.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 01:32:32 pm by Immortal-D »
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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2017, 01:27:24 pm »

Provide screenshot?

Libash_Thunderhead

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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2017, 07:13:57 am »

By the way, why don't you use "less than 30 products" and "check daily"?
It is easier to find if something goes wrong than having to wait for months.
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Immortal-D

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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2017, 09:09:01 am »

By the way, why don't you use "less than 30 products" and "check daily"?
It is easier to find if something goes wrong than having to wait for months.
I use enough work orders that Check Daily tends to result in only WOs being completed, so if I want to use the manager for any odd jobs, they would never get done.  I suppose I could set Daily for the super important tasks like mechanisms and doors, but I've found that too many daily checks renders the manager effectively useless for anything else.

mikekchar

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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 07:27:41 am »

Produce 30 rock mechanisms means produce 30 rock mechanisms -- total.  If you want to *maintain* 30 rock mechanisms, then you want a product condition of 'at most 30 rock mechanisms'.  I think you now understand that based on your edit.  30 rock mechanisms monthly will also mean that you will produce only 30 rock mechanisms in a month -- which is one per day on average.

Keeping an inventory of 30 rock mechanisms is kind of extreme.   I can't think of a reason to have that many rock mechanisms just lying around.  Instead I suggest making 1 rock mechanism daily and having a product condition of 6 rock mechanisms.  In this way, you will have about 6 rock mechanisms all the time.  If you use 3, then it will take 3 days to replenish your stock.  If you have an emergency and you have to make 2 bridges at once -- well it's going to take a few days anyway, so you don't really need to worry about it.

The nice thing about having 1 task daily is that your dwarf gets lots of time to do other things (because a job doesn't take a whole day).  That way they can go and socialise or pray and they don't get pent up desires.
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escondida

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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2017, 07:50:30 pm »

There are definitely reasons to keep loads of mechanisms on hand. Creating an array of traps all at once, for instance, or wanting to make sure you're *always* ready to build a raising bridge anywhere you need one, even you've been building a fair bit of machinery lately. Alternately, if you're doing anything with mechanical power, you'll need plenty.

Tellingly, most of my forts tend to end up with one or two legendary mechanics (who get to use the workshop and don't get to go outside into hazardous areas to build traps) and a zillion unskilled losers who have mechanics along with a load of unskilled labors, who don't get to use the workshop, since their job is to get that trap built before (say) more giant wolverines come a-pathin' through.
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mikekchar

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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2017, 06:33:00 am »

I guess the thing is, how long does it take to make a trap and how long does it take to make a mechanism?  I can't imagine having 30 workshops to make 30 traps all at the same time.  You need enough stock to keep production going until you can start production of mechanisms.  After that you're just wasting inventory space.  If you have a manager order to build mechanisms checked daily, then you only need 1 day worth of stockpile.  Even if all your engineering projects went all at once, I can't really imagine needing more than about 6.

Also, I've people talk about their manager getting overloaded, but in my fortresses I normally have about 40-50 work orders at any given time and my manager is almost never busy.  I wonder if it's because virtually all of my orders are daily recurring orders so they don't have to be validated.  I also have both 'r' conditions and 'p' conditions for *all* of my orders.  The only spam I get is when I've made a mistake or for shearing/milking (which is a pain to get perfectly so I don't bother).
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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2017, 10:42:55 am »

That works with most single-name furniture, but you can't lay weapon traps or gear assemblies or other mechanical components in planning mode, so you're trading inventory space for player having to come back and order next 6 mechanisms to be placed several times. Though tbh I would probably maintain small stock and put in large orders whenever I plan to toss few dozen mechanisms at something.

mikekchar

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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2017, 10:30:39 pm »

Fair enough... I wasn't thinking about weapons traps (where I guess you would be using goblinite).  I was mostly thinking about cage traps.  If I need 30 cage traps, then I need 30 cages, so I have plenty of time to make 30 mechanism.
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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2017, 10:48:02 pm »

Nah, that stands for cage traps too, though to a lesser extent. If you keep stock of 6 of each, you'll need to check the entrance five times; once for each set of six.

mikekchar

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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2017, 02:12:21 am »

As opposed to what?  If I have 30 mechanism in stock, "just in case", then I need 30 cages in stock too.  So I'm going to have 60 items in stock, perpetually, for the single time where I need 30 cage traps all at once?  I'm agreeing with you that doing a single manager order of 30 cages and a single manager order of 30 mechanism is vastly preferable.  Yes, it's going to take about 10 days to complete, but... so what?

That 10 days needs to be spent sometime.  There is no need to do it at the beginning of the game.  You can set up a manager job to do 3 mechanisms per day  (or how many ever you can build in a day... I'm not sure what that is).  Set the task to daily and set the "p" condition to "at least X" where X is how many you need in the near future.  Change X (at any time) to reflect how many you need to have in stock.  If you happen to need 30 all at once in the near future, set it to 30.  If you don't, then set it to whatever you need to deal with random jobs (like I said, usually 6 is enough -- though if your job size is 3, then the max you will have is 8: 6 - 1 + 3, assuming no bins).

The point of the original post was to say that having a monthly job of 30 is not really a good idea because it means you are building 30 at a time every time your 'p' condition drops below a certain point -- which means you are committing yourself to an inventory of 30 mechanism for no reason.  Even though there are plenty of reasons to use 30 mechanisms all at once, I don't think anybody really needs 30 mechanisms "just in case".
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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2017, 08:12:22 am »

As opposed to maintaining stock of 30 mechanism and cages. Now, you can't use full cages to load empty cage traps, so it is not like you're going to be using that order just once or twice (to have them immediately ready when things are caught)

I agree it wastes inventory space, even stone and is thus inefficient. However, it might be least bad option from player perspective. How long do you have to wait between 7+ mechanisms uses for the fps loss from maintaining a stock of 30 mechanisms outdoes the time for placement and waiting for completion of order for 7+ mechanisms? I'm not sure what the number for this is, but I suspect the average waits might be lower than that, as long as you use these more than once.

mikekchar

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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2017, 07:59:59 pm »

Ha ha.  I have to remember that everybody has different playing styles in DF.  It certainly seems strange to me, but then I don't play with QSPs and at least half of my fun is optimising work flows... so possibly *I'm* the strange one ;-)
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Immortal-D

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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2017, 06:10:14 pm »

Long as this thread is up, I have another query.  I have recently discovered the magic that is 'Reagents available is at least 1'.  However, this has not ended the spam of 'Cancels weave, needs at least 1 thread'.  Would linking the weave job to its' 'spin thread' predecessor help somehow?

mikekchar

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Re: This Work Order should be simple, and yet...
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2017, 09:22:45 pm »

Not really.  All that does it automatically trigger the job after the previous one ends.  I know, you would think that will fix your problem :-)

There are a couple of things that can cause your problem, but almost certainly it's the use of bins, linked workshops or burrows.  Basically, the conditions check on "available thread". Thread is available if it is not being used currently, not stored in a hospital box, or not being hauled.  If the job has started, but you get the cancellation spam, that means that the thread was available when the manager OKed the job, but that for some reason you can't use it (either because it became unavailable because someone started using it or hauling it, or because your workshop can't use it because it is in a different stockpile, outside of the burrow, or in a bugged bin).

Bins are already bugged.  Cloth and thread bins actually have more bugs than normal bins.  Never use bins for cloth or thread.  If you follow that rule, then it will solve most of your problems.  For things other than cloth or thread, you can use bins/barrels but you have to understand that if someone accesses the bin or barrel while you are doing your job -- all of the items in that container become unavailable!  There are very specific places and strategies for using containers with manager work conditions, but you really have to understand exactly how they work -- my advice is to get rid of all containers in your manager workflow until you completely understand how to use the manager, then you can start experimenting with using containers again (although, in my experience it is almost never worth it).

Apart from containers, the other main issue is when you have linked stockpiles/workshops but the item is in the wrong stockpile.  Basically you need to be very careful with this kind of thing.  If you have a linked stockpile with a manager order, you can not have another stockpile that contains the same thing and linked to a workshop with a different job.  You may or may not know, but each workshop can have it's own queue of jobs.  If you go on the workshop, press 'q', then 'P', then right arrow to "Work Orders" you can make a job just for that workshop.  That way you can have a quern that is linked to a dimple cup stock pile (for making dimple dye) and a different quern that is linked to a whip vine stockpile (for making whip vine flour).  You can add a job for milling in the dimple cup quern with an 'r' condition that you have at least 1 dimple cup.  You can add a job for milling in the whip vine quern with an 'r' condition that you have at least 1 whip vine.  That way you will make sure that you only mill dimple cups when you need dye, you only mill whip vines when you need flour and you never, ever mill your barley (because dwarfs need their barley wine!!!).

But the key is that if your dimple dye is in the wrong stockpile (not the one linked to the quern), you will get cancellation spam.  So if you have dimple cups in a feeder stockpile for your brewery (because you want dwarven ale), and your quern stockpile is empty, then you will get cancellation spam every day because your manager sees that you have dimple cups in the inventory, but the quern is complaining that its linked stockpile is empty.  What you can do for a kind of hacky work-around is have the brewery stockpile give to the quern stockpile.  This way the quern stockpile always has priority for the dimple cups.  If the quern stockpile is full, then it will overflow into your brewery stockpile, where it will be used for making ale.  The brewery will spam you if you run completely out of plants, but there is still some dimple cups in the quern stockpile -- but that's not really a bad thing.

I hope that helps!
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