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[Egan_BW]

anonymous

ha

[syvarris]

Ey, Piecewise, response.

Spoiler: "Anonymous" can look too. (click to show/hide)

I joined IRC to ask Dev what he meant by that, but he's not around, so I asked Egan:

(syv) ...That reminds me, did Dev tell you what I screwed up in Chalice, using more specific words than the ones PW quoted?
(ER) He thinks that using the gang default words from those corpses doesn't work

I'm presuming this is referring to how I took multiple copies of "Wall" off of the corpses, as is implied by my one setup action (and which I did do).  To be fair I don't remember ever specifically asking if gang words were exempt from the corpse looting rules, but you have let at least two RR actions specifically saying to loot gang words off corpses go through.  I know Radio took Repair off ATHATH's corpse, and I mentioned taking Wall off a corpse once before.  I guess you might have just not realized those were gang words and not random words they'd been assigned from hexes before dying, but nothing says we can't do this...  _{I've also been consistently listing all the gang (and hex) words held by taxidermied corpses for the entire time we've had taxidermied corpses, and I really wish someone aside from me cared about that fact. -.-}

Anyway, I suppose the question here is whether or not gang words can be looted off corpses.  If they can't be looted, I guess I need to go over the list again.  If yes, the next obvious question would be whether they can be sold off corpses, which if they can't would make the whole "distribute the words rather than store them" order moot because nothing can even be done with the words...

[Radio Controlled]

RR is apparently cheating by doubling up on words from corpses carrying gang words.  I was told that was against the rules when my teammates died.  Can you slap that out of them?

I'm to busy burying bodies right now to look into exactly what this means or whats going on, but ya better either explain or knock it off or I'm gonna have to bury some more bodies.

I assume it is a mistake in record keeping.

The way you copy paste the entire PM but then try to obfuscate the source is precious. As if anyone would be in doubt as to who would send such a message!
You're a doll, pw, but you have the worst infosec. 

[Radio Controlled]

I had a short conversation with 'Mr . Anonymous' on the IRC. I'll copy paste the transcript here to bring more clarity about where he's coming from and what the point of contention exactly is.

PW, take a look at this please:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

19:15   Devastator   oh, mentioned things to PW.
19:15   Devastator   Told you I wasn't hallucinating that rule.
19:17   radio   Yeah, but PW might be misremembering his own rules.
19:17   radio   When we bought all that stuff with those corpse words, he got a list of it explicitly.
19:19   Devastator   Trading corpse words is okay, although I'm disappointed at that a bit.
19:19   Devastator   I objected to doubling and tripling up on copies of gang words from corpses.
19:22   radio   PW did mention before words can be looted off of corpses though, didn't he?
19:22   radio   I don't remember if he mentioned exceptions for gang words.
19:23   Devastator   Yeah, that's okay.
19:23   Devastator   But no making multiple copies of such.
19:24   Devastator   which is what ER said he was doing with many.
19:24   radio   I think ER just took one 'many' word off of the two corpses, giving him 2 more 'many' for a total of 3, no?
19:25   radio   Like, say Thag died right now, OZ could take his copy of cat from the barbar corpse I think.
19:25   Devastator   Yeah, that's illegal.
19:25   Devastator   You can't hold more than one copy of a gang word.
19:25   Devastator   unless you found a second copy from territory.
19:26   radio   what part, exactly, is illegal?
19:26   Devastator   Having multiple copies of a gang word.
19:26   Devastator   It's illegal from corpses and from yourself, by not using it a round.
19:26   radio   See, I don't think that is correct as I understand the rules, you can loot any sort of word from a corpse I think.
19:27   radio   But the looted gang word won't replenish itself.
19:27   radio   So if Oz were to use his own copy of 'cat', it'd replenish, but not if he used the word 'cat' that he looted from corpse!Thag.
19:29   Devastator   Yeah, that's what I'm saying.  You have the rules wrong.
19:29   Devastator   You cannot get multiple copies of a gang word from any source.
19:29   radio   Where does it state that?
19:29   Devastator   PW is saying that right now.
19:30   radio   "I assume it is a mistake in record keeping."
19:30   radio   I think PW just glanced at the complaint, then threw it into the thread to let us sort it out.
19:30   Devastator   Yes, because you aren't allowed that, and he thought he made the rule clear.
19:30   radio   Then could you point me toward where he declared that rule please?
19:33   radio   Because before, one of our gangmembers died and I looted an extra copy of 'repair' directly from him and stuck it into my inventory. I explicitly said in my action that I was looting a repair word, and PW didn't object to it.
19:33   Devastator   That's okay.  What isn't okay is having a second copy of it.
19:34   radio   Wait, so right now I have 1 (replenishing) repair word from my gang, and 1 non-replenishing repair word from looting. So don't I have a second copy of it then?
19:35   Devastator   You never can have a second copy of a gang word, unless you get it from territory.
19:35   Devastator   If you spent your copy of that, you can pick up another one from a corpse, yes.
19:35   Devastator   But you still can't get a second copy of it at the end of the mission.
19:35   radio   no, I hadn't spent my repair yet (iirc, lemme check).
19:36   Devastator   "doubling up on words from corpses carrying gang words."  was what I said.
19:36   Devastator   And he said to knock it off.
19:37   radio   Yes, but I'm willing to bet PW hardly even read that pm, and/or he doesn't remember his own rules and/or judged differently on separate occasions.
19:38   radio   so, when I had my repair gangword and looted an extra repair from a teammate's corpse, I was breaking that rule then, if I'm understanding it correctly?
19:38   Devastator   Yes.
19:38   Devastator   No doubling up on gang words, except for territory.
19:38   radio   So why did PW not mention that then when I explicitly looted that second repair?
19:39   radio   I mean, we have a discrepancy here, right?
19:39   Devastator   Because he didn't read your post that well, and thought you were picking up a missing word.
19:39   Devastator   Not that you were doubling up.
19:40   Devastator   Did you try to cast a spell with two copies of repair in it?
19:40   Devastator   I think that's the point where he's likely to notice.
19:40   radio   But you can see how people in our gang would think it is allowed, given that precedent?
19:41   Devastator   What precedent?  PW hasn't said it's okay, just not noticed.
19:41   radio   That's a precedent, cause it isn't as if at the time we knew he wasn't paying attention.
19:41   radio   (which, for the record, we aren't sure of)
19:41   Devastator   He has said, right now, for you to not do that.
19:42   Devastator   And you're ignoring that because he didn't notice it in the past.
19:42   radio   Perhaps, but what I asked was 'But you can see how people in our gang would think it is allowed, given that precedent?'.
19:42   radio   If pw now rules differently, I'm perfectly fine with that.
19:42   Devastator   I've mentioned this to your gang members before.
19:42   Devastator   I was told I was just hallucinating the rules.
19:43   radio   Perhaps, but it wouldn't be the first time you communicating with others in this irc lead to misunderstandings, no?
19:43   Devastator   Heh, yeah.
19:43   Devastator   and it isn't the first time someone's ignored what I was saying because it was me saying it.
19:44   radio   So, if PW reaffirms his ruling, I'll explicitly ask why it was different for me back then, and if he said he just wasn't paying attention I'll get rid of the word immediately.
19:45   Devastator   So PW has to rule against you twice for you to follow the rules?
19:45   Devastator   I can understand that, but why is this such a huge deal?
19:45   Devastator   Egan was stating how he would destroy the attackers using a spell with four copies of 'many', which was shenanigans, and I don't want that to happen.
19:45   radio   'for you to follow the rules' see, I don't think it is fair that you word it like this.
19:46   Devastator   It's not the first you've heard of this rule.
19:46   Devastator   Or the second time.
19:46   Devastator   Or the third time.
19:46   radio   If I carried around that word due to a misunderstanding on my part and a failure to notice on PW's part, that's one thing, but it ain't willfully cheating.
19:47   radio   It is the first time PW is brought in to clear things up.
19:47   radio   And as I demonstrated, we had precedent that made it seem it was allowed.
19:47   Devastator   I'm pushing it because PW will notice when the big spell happens.
19:47   Devastator   I'd much rather sort things out before that point is reached.
19:48   radio   Of course!
19:48   radio   It is good that you bring it up to PW himself directly so we can sort this out and bring clarity.
19:48   Devastator   And I can get reluctance, but you should be asking PW this, in thread.
19:51   Devastator   Ask PW to clarify the rule and I'll be happy.l
19:51   Devastator   Syv is asking the wrong question, at this moment.
19:52   Devastator   I'm informing you of that.
19:52   radio   I haven't really read syv's reply closely.
19:53   Devastator   "Anyway, I suppose the question here is whether or not gang words can be looted off corpses.  If they can't be looted, I guess I need to go over the list again.  If yes, the next obvious question would be whether they can be sold off corpses"
19:54   Devastator   The answer to both those question is yes.  The question is "Can I carry multiple copies of a gang word?"
19:55   radio   If one loots a word, it implies they carry it as well, right?
19:56   radio   Or is the real question "Can I -use- multiple copies of a gang word simultaneously?" ?
19:56   Devastator   You can only loot the word when you don't have another copy of it.
19:56   Devastator   You can sell it off a corpse if you have a copy, because it's on the corpse and not you.
19:57   radio   Perhaps I/you should copy paste this/parts of convo and post it in the thread, so people will understand better where you are coming from?
19:57   Devastator   You can also loot it, sell it, and then have a fresh copy for yourself after the next turn, which is something I didn't want but has been legal.
20:10   Devastator   What is the rule in question, as you understand it?
20:15   radio The way I currently understand it is that, upon death of a mage, all the words in his inventory (replenishing gang words and non-replenishing words) become single-use, non replenishing words that can be picked up from the corpse, and used regularly like a single-copy word one gets from territories.
20:22   Devastator   Yeah, that's the issue.  I'm saying that isn't the case.

[syvarris]

Just gonna say that Radio's spoiler there explains all sides quite well, so you really should read it in full.  For the record, while I'll accept whatever ruling you decide upon, I heavily support the ruling that requires fewer special exceptions, _{and which doesn't require me to redo any bookkeeping.}

[piecewise]

Ok, I think I see the issue here.

The "Only one gang word" thing was me attempting to clarify that there was only one of each default gang word.  Ie pointing out that when you have that initial list of gang words, each one only represents one discrete item that must be shared and can't be distributed around to each person or have multiple "Copies" taken. You can have multiple copies of a gang word in your inventory so long as you get them in legit ways: such as looting them from a body or waiting for them to replenish with copies already in your inventory.

Does that make sense?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

[Devastator]

Ok, I think I see the issue here.

The "Only one gang word" thing was me attempting to clarify that there was only one of each default gang word.  Ie pointing out that when you have that initial list of gang words, each one only represents one discrete item that must be shared and can't be distributed around to each person or have multiple "Copies" taken. You can have multiple copies of a gang word in your inventory so long as you get them in legit ways: such as looting them from a body or waiting for them to replenish with copies already in your inventory.

Does that make sense?

I'm pretty sure both gangs have been taking it as one copy of each gang word per person.  If it's one copy for the whole gang, that changes things for everyone.  I can play that way in the future, but we'll have to reassess all our words with that in mind.  Basically, we're going to lose about two-thirds of our words, because we were taking individual copies of our gang words.  I'm pretty sure the other gang was doing this, but moreso, because they were also stacking these extra copies, wheras we have no duplicates from before this mission.

On the whole I think I would support the rules as you've stated them.

[Radio Controlled]

First of all, thanks for taking time out of your dragging bodies to the pits of hell to resolve this conundrum.

That said, I agree with Dev that I thought that every gang member gets 1 copy of the entire gang word list. That's how the game's been played up till now at least, so either this is an explicit rules change (which is just fine by me, for the record) or we still have some confusion going on.

[piecewise]

If you guys have been playing with the decks as though everyone had a copy of the starting words, we can continue like that with the understanding that you can't take multiple copies of the gang words unless you get them via legit sources.

Or we can change to make it so that gang words behave like all the other words; discrete items that have to be shared not a pool allotted to each player.  I think that would be best, honestly, because thats what I intended and it means the gang words are treated the same as the others, they aren't a special case.

[Devastator]

Okay.  I think I'll handle bookkeeping as if we had one set of gang words to distribute among players right now, as we had a bit over two sets from the casulties and the two missions in quick succession.

[syvarris]

I would greatly prefer things not be changed, mostly because that means significantly less bookkeeping for me, but also because it just seems like a better mechanic.  If every person gets a set of the gang words, every person at least has some useful words regardless of what junk hexes spit out, and it also makes a gangs feel more themed.

Though this would require you to define what "legit sources" for copies are.

[Ozarck]

Piecewise, you didn't think it odd at all, the number of black biometal felines and large clockwork firearms that our respective gangs were fielding each mission?

I think everyone has been real careful with gang words from other sources, to make sure we have them from legitimate sources, but as far as I know, everyone has been playing as though they each had a personal set of the permanent words.

I'm okay with changing that to a single copy for all gang members to draw from. I think what's gone before should be left as is, and the two teams currently in mission should be left with what they already have, while sy's team starting this current mission with one set only, and the other two teams following suit at teh end of our current missions.

To make it fair to newer teams, I'd also be okay with dissolving all permanent gang words from every source at the end of the current mission, to start next mission with a "clean slate" as it were. This would probably affect RR the most though, so they'd have to agree to it on their own (which I would be quite surprised at).

[Devastator]

TBH, I think we should have to dump some words if the other side is held to the one copy rule starting now.  I think we're mostly done our mission, in any case.

[Radio Controlled]

I would personally be in favor of every gang having only one set of their words to be distributed as needed, since it makes territory words more important and would force us to be more creative with spells (as abhorrent as Abu finds the idea of not just LargeFirearming his way out of every situation). And the less special exceptions to rules we have the better.

That said, I would propose we let this rule take effect starting from the next mission onwards for both gangs, because asking syv to suddenly do all of the bookkeeping again would be unfair. Even though we haven't really gotten our first turn yet for the defense mission, it would mean we'll have to revert all of our purchases (since we'll now need those words) and slow down the game for us considerably (I would prefer getting shot at by magitek cyborgs instead of standing around). Dumping a ton of work on someone due to a mistake that was due to no fault of their own isn't exactly a nice thing to do (unless anyone is volunteering for it? No? Yeah, didn't think so  ).

Oh, and I'd like to echo Oz' remark somewhat that the fact that we have been playing the game incorrectly for half a year with multiple people casting a gang word in the same mission seems like something that would have stood out if that wasn't how it's supposed to be. Maybe we should all pinch in for a new pair of glasses because it seems, PW,

You must be bliiiiiind.

[Devastator]

That's kinda saying that it'll have to kick in now-ish for us, and much later for you.  I'll also be pretty disappointed if RR gets to keep all the words they've built up over several missions, as that seems like the handicap will become one-sided. (SA hasn't been keeping gang words from mission to mission, or multiple copies of them at any time.)  I'd rather we both just lose all built up gang words, with one set to then distribute.  I'll live with it even if that means SA has no gang words until mission end, as we're on mission right now.

Your proposal seems like rewarding the side that has been taking advantage more, as you'd get to keep the massive pile of built-up words you're sitting on, while we'd get shafted for not violating the rules to the same extent as RR was.