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[Tack]

Now we just have to decide what's more important to spend dice on.

3 to make a new design
1 to improve crossbow
1 to give us a counter-ambush revision
X for cloudrunner

[NUKE9.13]

Well, if we start the design of the PLACE now, we will probably be able to get a prototype next turn (if we don't get it this turn). (I figure it can't take much more than 12, even if we roll poorly for time). So if we want to do it, we should do it now.

Improving the crossbow is quite important. If we start it now, we could deliberately split it into two revisions- one to change the reloading mechanism to something slower but more powerful, and another to strengthen the prods. That, bad rolls aside, would almost certainly get us a decent arbalest.

A counter-ambush tactic would solidify our aerial advantage, and we'd want it this turn so our transports don't get shot down as they return home.

The Cloudrunner is of a relatively low priority. Unfortunately. It'd be nice to get a prototype so we can start thinking about how to improve it, and build our strategy around it, but if we don't have the dice, we don't have the dice.
So I guess I'm going to change my votes again. I removed the revision box since no one else was using it, but feel free to add it back if you really want. (In which case I'm voting for improved crossbows and better ship tactics (don't care which))

The Unfinished
Retreat: (1) NUKE9.13
No Retreat:

Ongoing Projects:
Invest 2 die into the Cloudrunner:
  -Spending 2 Ore, 12 Wood.
Invest 1 die into the Cloudrunner: (2) Tack, Milo
 -Spending 1 Ore, 6 Wood.
No project advancement: (1) NUKE9.13

New Designs:
PLACE V1.0: (1) NUKE9.13
Type I HEM:
Heavy Emplacement Cannon Mk1: (1) Tack
Dinghy Infantry Cannon Mk1:
No design this turn: (1) Milo

[Tack]

I still feel that heavy crossbow improvements and making a light cannon mobile are mutually exclusive.
If we're getting PLACs, we shouldn't bother throwing dice into a half measure.
Likewise, if we're getting arbalests, that means we can afford to invest more time into a heavier cannon.

My vote re: design dice is still relevant, but I don't want to accidentally vote for the option above which is my least desirable outcome, so I'm gonna wait to see if the dice should be going into PLACE and Cloudrunner, or HEC/HEM and Arbalests respectively.
Although the outcome of this conversation should result in some sort of decision being made, or until more votes show up and swing it somewhere else.

Edit: Revised Votelist (Including Madman's Below Votes)

The Unfinished 4 skiffs, 1 Damaged transport
Retreat: (2) NUKE9.13, Tack
No Retreat:
All available skiffs to Three Captains (1) Tack
All available skiffs returning home:
The Three Captains 3 skiffs, 1 Damaged Transport
Evacuate transport, leave troops: (1) Tack
Skiffs stay holding: (1) Tack
Spire Wreth 2 Skiffs, 2t Marines
All Available Skiffs to Three Captains

This Depends On What We Revise And We Can't Decide At All Yet: (1) Madman

Ongoing Projects:
Invest 2 die into the Cloudrunner:
  -Spending 2 Ore, 12 Wood.
Invest 1 die into the Cloudrunner: (1) Milo
 -Spending 1 Ore, 6 Wood.
No project advancement: (2) NUKE9.13, Tack

New Designs:
PLACE: (1) NUKE9.13
Type I HEM:
Heavy Emplacement Cannon Mk1: (1) Tack
No design this turn: (1) Milo, Madman

Bugswatting:
Exterminator Heavy Arbalest: (1) NUKE9.13
Aetheric Gauntlet Improvement (Longer firing): (1) Madman
Torment Gauntlets (More power): (1) Madman
Improved Flintlocks:
Dinghy Infantry Cannon Mk1: (1) Madman

Ship Combat:
OUTManeuver: (Outrun, Undermine, Terrorize): (1) Madman
Counter-Dive (Roll-and-Broadside): (1) Tack

Anti-Insanity measures
Total Aetheric Protection: (1) Madman

Edit: Frankly Madman I think you're trying a little hard to make ninja suits.
But if it'll do something similar to the HEM with less dice, maybe we can get away with it.
Then again, if we're giving it to all of the men as well, we might be better off just having a vest+hood or vest+balaclava. I doubt draig will let us get away with making a bigger suit out of less silk.

[Madman198237]

So that got interesting. So, lots of ideas.

If we're going to use silk, we first ought to look at a revision that simply makes a full-body super-thin version of the Aethersilk Officer Vest. It might work, it might not be as viable.

Total Aetheric Protection
By expanding on the basic design of an aethersilk vest, we can (hopefully) protect soldiers from aether effects. By thinning the silk immensely, into little more than a web to transfer ambient Aether away from soldiers, we hope to preserve or even reduce the cost, compared to a vest. Special care is given to protect the head from such effects.

As for killing giant spiders accompanied by smaller spiders... More Pincushions, combined with some form of Aetheric artillery. Perhaps the DIE would work. After all, it's literally a dinghy. With a cannon on it.

Formal gauntlet proposal:
Aetheric Gauntlet Improvement
By modifying the heat-dispersal mechanisms like we did for the LAC, Aetheric Gauntlets can fire longer. Combined with a simple adaptation to pad the handhold with leather, we can also remove the gauntlet burns.

Our gauntlets are already 15-25% more powerful, so we should be capable of dealing real damage even with a gauntlet shot. It might require close-range, but, well....I'm not sure we can do any better without compromising the gauntlet's firing ability. Hm. Perhaps two revisions. Yep, two revisions

Torment Gauntlets
An aetheric gauntlet is a fairly decent weapon. By slightly enlarging the crystals, we hope to be able to shoot further and hit harder. They will incorporate any successes from the AGI initiative, and provide a total improvement of all aspects of the gauntlet.

The Unfinished
Retreat: (1) NUKE9.13
No Retreat: (0)
This Depends On What We Revise And We Can't Decide At All Yet: (1) Madman

Ongoing Projects:
Invest 2 die into the Cloudrunner:
  -Spending 2 Ore, 12 Wood.
Invest 1 die into the Cloudrunner: (2) Tack, Milo
 -Spending 1 Ore, 6 Wood.
No project advancement: (2) NUKE, Madman

New Designs:
PLACE: (1) NUKE9.13
Type I HEM:
Heavy Emplacement Cannon Mk1: (1) Tack
No design this turn: (2) Milo, Madman

Bugswatting:
Exterminator Heavy Arbalest: (1) NUKE9.13
Aetheric Gauntlet Improvement (Longer firing): (1) Madman
Torment Gauntlets (More power): (1) Madman
Improved Flintlocks:
Dinghy anti-Infantry Emplacement (DIE): (1) Madman

Ship Combat:
OUTManeuver Use superior flight characteristics to not take damage (Outrun, Undermine, Terrorize): (1) Madman
Counter-Dive (Roll-and-Broadside)

Anti-Insanity measures
Total Aetheric Protection (Full-body modification of aethersilk vests): (1) Madman

[NUKE9.13]

I still feel that heavy crossbow improvements and making a light cannon mobile are mutually exclusive.
If we're getting PLACs, we shouldn't bother throwing dice into a half measure.
Likewise, if we're getting arbalests, that means we can afford to invest more time into a heavier cannon.

Right, except, a PLACE by itself won't fully deal with the giant spiders. Having a backup weapon that can still hurt the creatures will make life a lot easier for our marines.
In the same way, arbalests alone probably won't cut it. They might hurt them, but it will take a lot of shots to take down a creature the size of a dinghy. Better to have the arbalests to hurt them and drive them back, and the cannon to finish the job.

As for why we should go for a PLACE rather than a PHACE...
Draignean said that the LAC is actually the equivalent of a saker. That's actually a respectable piece of artillery. Certainly capable of taking care of pretty much anything short of a tank on the ground. In fact, if we make it any bigger, it's going to become rather cumbersome to move around, significantly reducing its infantry-support role.
We don't currently have a HAC. I think we'd be better served designing that, before trying to make it mobile. If we have a HAC and a PLACE, making a PHACE should only require a revision... I think.
And we don't currently need a HAC. Yeah, it'd be nice to have one for later, but we're trying to figure out how to save our marines in the Three Captains, not develop technology that we won't need for another six turns.


Madman, you won't be able to get the DIE past Draignean as a revision. What you want is the PLACE.
I also don't think your aethersilk bodysuit will work as a revision. I mean, you'll get it, but it won't have the properties you want. Remember, revisions are for minor changes to existing technology, not completely changing what they do. Draignean made it pretty clear in the core thread OP that sneaking new technology in as revisions is not going to work. So all it would do is slightly protect from aetheric weapons, except not because you are making it thinner. Make it a design. Or better yet, go with the HEM, which won't cost as much silk per squad.

Also, regarding strategy, what we revise/design depends on what strategy we are going for. If we are trying to hold onto the Unfinished, we need to design/revise with that in mind. So, do you think we should retreat or not?

[Madman198237]

While I agree that the Aethersilk suit is a stretch, the alternative is three dice that we don't really have. As for the DIE, it's not anything that can really be construed as a design-worthy improvement. It is taking a lightweight, well, not really a ship, but a boat, and adding a cannon mounting. The only thing different is telling people that marines are going to use it instead of sailors. That strikes me as a revision. A tactics revision would turn "Ambush them" into "Ambush them near a cannon position"

[Tack]

I'm willing to vote against the HAC, because you are right, it won't be needed for a while (I assume the cloudrunner wouldn't be able to mount it).
But I'm still not sold on going both Arbalest AND Cannon. We should go one or the other, and spend the dice where they're needed elsewhere.

As for making combat-capable Dinghies, that could potentially work, but then they'd cost more resources (especially crystal) and probably wouldn't fit into most spires.
However, if they DO then hell, why not. Better to float a little tub around corridor corners than deal with picking up and dropping off and all that nonsense- the reason I wanted the HEC was primarily as an anti-ship weapon anyway.

So I guess Draig, would you vet a gunboat dinghy as a revision, and would it fit (and be effective) inside the Three Captains?
Would a cranked heavy crossbow fit as a revision?
IF yes to both, I'm sold.
Actually while I've got Draignean

Is it possible to research designs which affect our design speed or amount of dice? Not sure of the rules re: wishing for more wishes.

Which brings me to my next point- Aetheric gauntlets.
Dropping two dice into them in one turn seems silly and a waste. We should probably just pick one part to improve and improve it.
Or someone suggested a flamethrower gauntlet earlier, so I'm going to write up a proper proposal for that.

A specific rewire of gauntlet crystal networks could allow for changes in the pattern of the beams we fire from it. One potential matrix has been brought to the review board to create a weapon capable of spilling its light in a wider arc at short range. This wouldn't cause the puncturing impact of a standard gauntlet, but would quickly cause intense burns and later immolation of any target bathed for a few seconds or by multiple gauntlet wielders.

Which is a great option to deal with small bugs and the small holes they're hiding in, at the risk of accidentally setting up a king's ransom in silk,d and will also possibly do some damage to the armoured big beetles.
It does, however, have another small issue: range. Big spiders at short range will make short work of flamethrower marines.
However, if we post-haste the arbalest revision, we might be okay.

[Madman198237]

We likely need a new crossbow design to fit the bill, incorporating everything we've learned (Shorter research time) into a windlass-driven high-power crossbow meant to shoot down armored enemies and spiders alike.

I don't want to do that.

I think Aether is probably the way to go, seeing as how it'll do more damage than anything else. If we capture the Unfinished, we'll have the crystal to do what needs to be done.

[milo christiansen]

The suppressor was intended to be a relatively light infantry weapon that would do two things:

A) Provide a mundane weapon that can ignore silk armor that is reliable and won't blow up in your face.
B) Fill the need for a cheaper, faster firing, general purpose ranged weapon that has OK performance.

Both goals are more or less met, therefore there is little need for more crossbow designs.

VS big creatures, we need the stopping power of aetheric weapons. Remember: Word of GM has it that the spiders are not aether resistant!

The point of goal A is that hopefully they won't deploy more silk vests if the see a counter already deployed. This will make our aetheric weapons more powerful, basically for "free".

Edit: Basically this is a long way to say I mostly agree with madman. I'm not voting for revisions yet, but 2 dice in gauntlets is high on my list.
Also: No flamethrower gauntlet! It won't do a thing vs spiders, we need the focused power of normal gauntlets to punch through their armor.
Has anyone considered removable heatsinks?

[Jilladilla]

Alright, awake and casting my vote now, but I'm leaving my revision votes out until we actually get to the revision phase though.

The Unfinished
Retreat: (1) NUKE9.13
No Retreat: (0)
This Depends On What We Revise And We Can't Decide At All Yet: (1) Madman

Ongoing Projects:
Invest 2 die into the Cloudrunner:
  -Spending 2 Ore, 12 Wood.
Invest 1 die into the Cloudrunner: (2) Tack, Milo
 -Spending 1 Ore, 6 Wood.
No project advancement: (3) NUKE, Madman, Jilladilla

New Designs:
PLACE: (2) NUKE9.13, Jilladilla
Type I HEM:
Heavy Emplacement Cannon Mk1: (1) Tack
No design this turn: (2) Milo, Madman

Bugswatting:
Exterminator Heavy Arbalest: (1) NUKE9.13
Aetheric Gauntlet Improvement (Longer firing): (1) Madman
Torment Gauntlets (More power): (1) Madman
Improved Flintlocks:
Dinghy anti-Infantry Emplacement (DIE): (1) Madman

Ship Combat:
OUTManeuver Use superior flight characteristics to not take damage (Outrun, Undermine, Terrorize): (1) Madman
Counter-Dive (Roll-and-Broadside)

Anti-Insanity measures
Total Aetheric Protection (Full-body modification of aethersilk vests): (1) Madman

EDIT: Something interesting I found in the description of the LAC:

Light Aether Cannon*: -snipped description-
---> The Itshana Process has improved crystal purity, allowing for a slight increase in power.
---> Can be manufactured using Itshana Select crystals, which gives a 175-200% increase in power, at the cost of increasing the ore cost of the component by an amount equal to the base crystal price. WARNING: Cannons have not been modified to compensate for the increased energy output.
---> Improved Dissipation enable it to be fired 25% faster than normal once hot.

While we don't know whether this means it'll just overheat stupidly fast, or if it will just outright explode from the strain, it does mean that Itshana Select cannons seem to be a no go for now... (Perhaps all future cannon designs should be somewhat over-engineered, with the Itshana Select cannons effectively becoming an automatic heavier variant?) The PLACE should be fine as is, though, over-engineering means more weight, and do we really think we need double strength shots against the giant spiders? (Also it would probably strain the PLACE's tiny core crystal at that point)

[Draignean]

We seem like we're tied up between 'No Design' and 'PLACE'. I'll give you guys a little time, but if that doesn't work I'll flip a coin.

[Jilladilla]

Alright guys, we need something heavy duty NOW, something that isn't rifles that cost ore we don't have, and simple Itshana-Select gauntlets will likely run into the same issues as the cannon: It's not built to handle that much power.

Otherwise we will face heavy attrition at Three Captains, if not outright being unable to fully claim the spire. Bringing a cannon should even future proof things a bit in the event there turns out to be even larger giant monster spiders.

[Madman198237]

If we don't spend the dice, we stand a solid chance of revising enough equipment (AND TACTICS!) to beat them back before we roll out the heavier warship.

[Tack]

Tiebreaking in favour of PLACE

[Madman198237]

...

We're jeopardizing a lot by attempting another design.

That thing better be capable of fitting through doors and crap, guys.


I can only say: Finish what we start, otherwise we've wasted dice.
That ship needs to get deployed ASAP to get us a larger advantage in all combats.