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[Kashyyk]

[1] Fanned Lance Cannon : Wizgrot
[1] Viper Pattern : Wizgrot
[1] Local Levies : Wizgrot
[1] Smuggle : Wizgrot
[1] Night Time Supply Runs : Kashyyk
[1] Kettlegun Radiators : Kashyyk
[1] Ore Refinement Techniques : Kashyyk
[] Crystal Refinement Techniques :
[] Wood Refinement Techniques :
[1] Silk Refinement Techniques : Kashyyk
[] Hold a Die :

I'm quite certain that Local Levies, is design tier. I also don't think we need to do it.

And as we don't actually have a Viper Pattern yet, I'll submit one.

Medium Mount Viper Hull 5o, 13w
Bronzewood Construction 5w
Vanguard 3c, 5o
6x Kettlegun 6c, 6o
2x Copper Plating 6o
Med Core 18c
Small Lift 3c, 2o
5x Trim Web 5c, 5o, 15w
6x Reams of Webbing 12s

Total Cost: 35c, 29o, 33w, 12s

We may want a Topaz version instead, but I doubt we can maintain two Topaz production lines at once.

Finally, I pint you back to our Mini-Vanguard:

Vanguard 'Mini' LAC (Small  Cannon)  3 Ore, 2 Crystal, Small | A single barrel variant of the Vanguard, designed to run in small mounts. Suffers greatly increased issues from the water leakage of the Vanguard design, and can only manage a sustained ROF of one shot per 18 seconds.

In it's current form, it's a bit crap. But with two good revisions (one for fixing the water leakage, and one for the cost) I honestly believe we can improve it to a 2o, 1c cannon with a RoF of at least 1 per 10 seconds. It really shouldn't be leaking water at all, because there are no moving parts, and as there are less parts and are smaller, it should be easy to cut down the resource wastage. If we can load a Viper with ten of these, it will be a breakthrough in naval warfare.

[Jerick]

I was looking back at some of our designs and I'm no longer as sure as I was that Wreth have built a Corvette PL. I think we might have just been repeatedly screwed by bad cost rolls. Everything effective we have is either limited in number or expensive. And I'm not talking about being a little expensive. The Lance Cannon for example uses 7 units of crystal. Now I believe that one unit of resource uses up one TU when transported (please correct me if I'm wrong). That's more than our standard transports can carry in order to build a single small cannon. Small cannons take up one TU when being transported. There is an obscene amount of wastage going on. Little wonder they outnumber us.

In other news I've done up a spreadsheet for price and loadout calculations: Spreadsheet. Anyone with that link can edit it and plug in any numbers they like. Page one is a price list of ship and infantry equipment. The base cost is already there just change the number purchased and it'll add it all up at the bottom.

Page 2 is a little more interesting as it's a ship loadout calculator. Put the COWS costs in and the number you intend to mount and it should calculate everything out for you. And before anyone asks no you don't have to fill out the weapon slots there just there in case someone wants to put separate weapons in each slot. You can just enter the weapons in one slot and add how many you are mounting.
After plugging in the Crotalinae numbers she gets 373 bp. We can optimize with revisions after rolling the pattern so we might be able to squeeze three of those a turn if we spend a dice or two to improve it. (assuming we roll well on it)

We may want a Topaz version instead, but I doubt we can maintain two Topaz production lines at once.

Well I believe people want to equip the skiffs with lances so we will likely be retiring the current Skiff production pattern so it might be worth it. 

[Rockeater]

So you think we should do efficiency revision if we get the chance?

[Jerick]

So you think we should do efficiency revision if we get the chance?

Yes I do. Maybe we could do something like "Guild accountability" were we take the guilds to task over the wasted resources and see if we can get our resources to stop going missing. I'm suspicious there might be some creative accounting going on. But that is something for another day.

[Doomblade187]

[1] Fanned Lance Cannon : Wizgrot
[1] Viper Pattern : Wizgrot
[1] Local Levies : Wizgrot
[1] Smuggle : Wizgrot
[2] Night Time Supply Runs : Kashyyk, Doomblade
[2] Kettlegun Radiators : Kashyyk, Doomblade
[2] Ore Refinement Techniques : Kashyyk, Doomblade
[1] Crystal Refinement Techniques : Doomblade
[] Wood Refinement Techniques :
[1] Silk Refinement Techniques : Kashyyk
[1] Lance Efficiency: Doomblade
[] Hold a Die :

Lance Efficiency:

The current form of our Lance cannon suffers dramatically from overheating. By refining the crystal matrix, we can reduce the amount of energy shunted to waste heat and make the conversion of aether to Lance more efficient.

[Draignean]

I was looking back at some of our designs and I'm no longer as sure as I was that Wreth have built a Corvette PL. I think we might have just been repeatedly screwed by bad cost rolls. Everything effective we have is either limited in number or expensive. And I'm not talking about being a little expensive. The Lance Cannon for example uses 7 units of crystal. Now I believe that one unit of resource uses up one TU when transported (please correct me if I'm wrong). That's more than our standard transports can carry in order to build a single small cannon. Small cannons take up one TU when being transported. There is an obscene amount of wastage going on. Little wonder they outnumber us.

You appear to have made a couple critical misconceptions here. Not all crystal/ore/wood/silk is equal. If I say that 1 TU can ferry 5 units of resources, those resources are in some undefined intermediary form. 5 Crystal is not a defined volume of crystal, just as 5 ore is not a defined volume of ore.

5 ore could represent quite a lot of copper, a bar of gold, or an amount of rarer metal so small that could hold it in your palm. 6 crystal could be two bathtub sized lifting crystals, a dozen head sized trim crystals, six doublefist sized cannon crystals, or not quite one lance crystal. It's not that the additional volume is (entirely) wasted, it's that it's just more resource intensive to make more advanced crystals.

So, while I'm not averse to you flavoring a revision as reducing waste materials, a mismatch between transport volume and material cost is not a clear indicator that the Spire Mafia is stealing all your shit.


Also, implementing Kashyyk's links asap.

[Jerick]

You appear to have made a couple critical misconceptions here. Not all crystal/ore/wood/silk is equal. If I say that 1 TU can ferry 5 units of resources, those resources are in some undefined intermediary form. 5 Crystal is not a defined volume of crystal, just as 5 ore is not a defined volume of ore.

5 ore could represent quite a lot of copper, a bar of gold, or an amount of rarer metal so small that could hold it in your palm. 6 crystal could be two bathtub sized lifting crystals, a dozen head sized trim crystals, six doublefist sized cannon crystals, or not quite one lance crystal. It's not that the additional volume is (entirely) wasted, it's that it's just more resource intensive to make more advanced crystals.

Ah I see, I see. Still doesn't mean a lot of our stuff isn't pretty expensive for what it does though and greedy guilds make for a good fluff excuse of how to reduce cost.
Still I suppose I better vote;

Human beings have adapted and survived in countless environments prior to the loss of the surface. We did this by studying the environment and finding ways to make it work for us. This revision is to study the environment of burning mountain in order to create methods of survival in the harsh environment

[1] Fanned Lance Cannon : Wizgrot
[1] Viper Pattern : Wizgrot
[1] Local Levies : Wizgrot
[1] Smuggle : Wizgrot
[3] Night Time Supply Runs : Kashyyk, Doomblade, Jerick
[2] Kettlegun Radiators : Kashyyk, Doomblade
[3] Ore Refinement Techniques : Kashyyk, Doomblade, Jerick
[1] Crystal Refinement Techniques : Doomblade
[] Wood Refinement Techniques :
[1] Silk Refinement Techniques : Kashyyk
[2] Lance Efficiency: Doomblade, Jerick
[1] Burned Mountain survival Tactics : Jerick
[] Hold a Die :

[Talion]

[1] Fanned Lance Cannon : Wizgrot
[2] Viper Pattern : Wizgrot, Talion
[1] Local Levies : Wizgrot
[1] Smuggle : Wizgrot
[3] Night Time Supply Runs : Kashyyk, Doomblade, Jerick
[2] Kettlegun Radiators : Kashyyk, Doomblade
[3] Ore Refinement Techniques : Kashyyk, Doomblade, Jerick
[1] Crystal Refinement Techniques : Doomblade
[] Wood Refinement Techniques :
[1] Silk Refinement Techniques : Kashyyk
[2] Lance Efficiency: Doomblade, Jerick
[1] Burned Mountain survival Tactics : Jerick
[] Hold a Die :

[Rockeater]

[1] Fanned Lance Cannon : Wizgrot
[3] Viper Pattern : Wizgrot, Talion,Rockeater
[1] Local Levies : Wizgrot
[1] Smuggle : Wizgrot
[3] Night Time Supply Runs : Kashyyk, Doomblade, Jerick
[2] Kettlegun Radiators : Kashyyk, Doomblade
[4] Ore Refinement Techniques : Kashyyk, Doomblade, Jerick,Rockeater
[1] Crystal Refinement Techniques : Doomblade
[] Wood Refinement Techniques :
[1] Silk Refinement Techniques : Kashyyk
[3] Lance Efficiency: Doomblade, Jerick,Rockeater
[2] Burned Mountain survival Tactics : Jerick,Rockeater
[] Hold a Die :

[Wizgrot]

[1] Viper Pattern : Wizgrot, Talion,Rockeater
[1] [url=http://www.bay12forums.com
[1] [url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164854.msg7730949#msg7730949]Smuggle : Wizgrot
[3] Night Time Supply Runs : Kashyyk, Doomblade, Jerick
[2] Kettlegun Radiators : Kashyyk, Doomblade
[4] Ore Refinement Techniques : Kashyyk, Doomblade, Jerick,Rockeater
[1] Crystal Refinement Techniques : Doomblade
[] Wood Refinement Techniques :
[1] Silk Refinement Techniques : Kashyyk
[3] Lance Efficiency: Doomblade, Jerick,Rockeater
[2] Burned Mountain survival Tactics : Jerick,Rockeater
[1]Burning Man Suit:Wizgrot
[] Hold a Die :
[1]Hold 2 die: Wizgrot

Guys, remember, we need to hold at least two dice, one for repeating the Viper and another as a just in case, or for the Medium Docks rush if we get enough resources.

Since we have no transports, I would suggest the Smuggle over the Night insertion, tactic, as it let us get things out as well as get things in. It will give us resources. I would propose two other resources gathering/efficiency upgrade techs. Either that or the Burning made suit. Rather than tactics to survive hazardous environments, having a piece of equipment that lets do that would be kind of nicer. I would recon our marines will have a hard time acclimatizing themselves to poison gasses.

[helmacon]

My issue with the burning man suit is that it is rather large, and would likely take resources to produce, and then have to be shipped to burned mountain. Allow me to propose an alternative.

Stalker Masks:

Built out of our already free leather aeronaut helmets/goggles the Stalker mask simply adds an attached cloth hood over the rest of the face and a filter made of alternating layers of silk, charcoal, and charcoal dust. It seals back around the head using adjustable cloth straps. This should allow our men to advance through poisonous gasses and give us a jump start for when Wreth continues it's research into chemical warfare.

Simple, effective, and hopefully free.

Edit: @ Kashyyk, for the nighttime supply runs, you should add something about launching from unusual and non-traditional spire locations (eg. low altitude crevasses)  instead of regular and known port locations.

[Kashyyk]

Done.

Also, Wizgrot, you messed up the vote box.  You might want to have another go at it.

[Jerick]

Guys, remember, we need to hold at least two dice, one for repeating the Viper and another as a just in case, or for the Medium Docks rush if we get enough resources.

Since we have no transports, I would suggest the Smuggle over the Night insertion, tactic, as it let us get things out as well as get things in. It will give us resources. I would propose two other resources gathering/efficiency upgrade techs. Either that or the Burning made suit. Rather than tactics to survive hazardous environments, having a piece of equipment that lets do that would be kind of nicer. I would recon our marines will have a hard time acclimatizing themselves to poison gasses.

Several points one we will not be able to afford the medium dock rush next turn it is simply impossible with available resources so there is no point holding dice for that just yet. Secondly that means we need to delay the enemy as much as possible without using resources.  So we need to make the most efficient use of our dice as possible. What we need right now are; things that make it harder to capture Blackstone, things that make that give us resources, things that let us capture Spires (like the burning mountain) so we can offset the loss of TC.
But we can neither ship items to BM or afford to make anything so anything we come up with must be free. In addition the Burning man suit while a decent design proposal is just that it's big enough to be a design. And trying to do design scale stuff with revisions never works out.

As to the smuggle versus Night insertion. We do actually have a spare transport at the unfinished we could pull back and send next turn as well as three equipped squads at Spire Kasgyr. But we can't replace anything we lose.

Stalker Masks would probably turn out far more effective than the Burned Mountain Survival Tactics but I don't know if they'll be free. I mean we have to purchase grappling hooks for our troops and while these ought to be simple and cheap I'm not sure it's going to be nothing.

[Draignean]

I'll be trying to run the turn today.

It looks like the winning revisions are
Ore Refinement
Viper Pattern (Maybe? Kinda hard to tell)
Night Time Supply Runs
Lance Efficiency
Burned Mountain Survival (Tie)
Kettlegun Radiators (Tie)


Of course, your current votebox is borked, which makes the Viper Pattern look like it has one vote. So, maybe take some time to get your shit together.

[Kashyyk]

I'd say your list looks right.