Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Reelya]

I'm uneasy with the buy-in to two-sides talk.  Isn't politics a n-dimensional polygon rather than a classic 'us' and 'them' right wing trope?  At least before being grabbed by the mass-marketing of democracy.  And I take it that this was (a positive) part of alway's contribution: subsuming a bunch of events under a movement (...even if justified...) gives it an additional power for the forces of virality.

Exposing issues on both "sides" is in fact about breaking down the "sides" thing. Some people ask "well why don't you expose the right?" But that's ... b.s. because we talk about how shit the right are all the fucking time. That's no excuse to tolerate shitheads on the left.

https://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenintheworld/2017/06/08/feminist-laci-green-popular-internet-host-harassed-after-announcing-relationship-with-controversial-youtuber/


Because a feminist dated an alt-right guy, now no white people can be trusted. They're all Hitler, even the feminist ones. "whypipo as a collective" - what the fuck is that? Like all white people are a KKK hivemind. This is how hardline sjws actually talk to each other. Now I haven't seen much about this Chris Ray Gun dude, but ... is he really a "white supremacist" or is he just someone who questions social justice ideology? If so, it would show a clear case that anyone who questions sjw doctrines is automatically equated with the worst of the worst, as is anyone who is merely friends with them, regardless of their beliefs. So the left is already fracturing because of "us vs them" b.s. Exposing b.s. on the left isn't going to fracture the movement.

Since there's already infighting you can back the Laci Green types who are open to ideas or you can back the hardliners who want to excommunicate anyone who doesn't toe a specific line. I can tell you which side of this debate I think is more damaging to the Left as a whole, but I think you know my opinion.

Do you know what it's called when they label you with the worst epithets (e.g. Laci = white supremacist) for fratenizing with people outside your movement? They call that a cult.

[smjjames]

Aren't both the Left and Right fracturing somewhat? The Dems have their fracture lines which seem in part to be generational and theres the Sanders and Clinton wings. In your wording, the 'Laci Green types' would be those who are anti-establishment vs the establishment wing. Meanwhile, the Republicans are barely held together by opposition to the Dems and wanting to govern, but even THEN, they are showing fractures.

Remember how there was all that talk about the Republicans fracturing into multiple parties before Trump was elected? All of the fractures and dividing lines are still there, they didn't disappear overnight, they're just thinly plastered over. As it turns out, the Democrats are equally fractured (though unified in opposition to the Republicans), and might actually be the worse off than the two.

The whole urban/rural rich/poor establishment/not-establishment affects both parties, which is why we saw the likes of Sanders vs Clinton.

Edit: Oh wait, I see you meant Laci Green was being the White Supremacist there, or the Feminist. I completely misread your post. edit2: Okay, I was being rather confused there.

[Qassius]

Now I haven't seen much about this Chris Ray Gun dude, but ... is he really a "white supremacist" or is he just someone who questions social justice ideology?

He's another of those anti-SJW comedy channels on youtube, just a rather liberal type that makes fun of things. Not a white supremacist, more of a shitposter.

[Max™]

Seems like someone who parodies SJW nonsense, but I'm not watching a video of some goofy looking kid with political shit to spew, not even if that kid was me ten years ago, much less some random youtuber, so I don't know more specifics about what he does. He may very well be using nazi codewords and shit left and right, dunno, but the first few hits on ddg were just his parodies.

Now I haven't seen much about this Chris Ray Gun dude, but ... is he really a "white supremacist" or is he just someone who questions social justice ideology?

He's another of those anti-SJW comedy channels on youtube, just a rather liberal type that makes fun of things. Not a white supremacist, more of a shitposter.

There ya go, I might actually agree with a lot he talks about, still not watching that shit but hey.

[Reelya]

The Dems have their fracture lines which seem in part to be generational and theres the Sanders and Clinton wings. In your wording, the 'Laci Green types' would be those who are anti-establishment vs the establishment wing. Meanwhile, the Republicans are barely held together by opposition to the Dems and wanting to govern, but even THEN, they are showing fractures.

I don't think this whole thing can really be boiled down to party politics, internal or otherwise.

The people attacking Laci aren't "establishment Democrats", they see themselves as very anti-establishment. Also for the "sjw" term, note that sjws are in fact using that term to self-identify (as seen in the image above), since it encompasses more of the movement's goals than just saying e.g. "feminist". The SJW term is sticking because it does a good job delineating a group of people who consider themselves part of a movement.

When I said "Laci Green types" I meant social justice people who are open to dialogue and debate with the non-sjw social media community. They're getting a strong backlash from some hardliners, which includes doxxing, death threats, for going "off script". This is all grass roots level and doesn't have much connection to party politics, e.g. I don't know whether the pro-Laci or anti-Laci people would be more likely to vote Sanders vs Clinton either way. I'd think it would be a wash.

[smjjames]

I got confused and thought you were talking about party politics or something close to that, heh.

[Reelya]

"Party loyalty" is part of the logic, but just not in the way you suggested. e.g. the pro-Laci and anti-Laci people are not different wings of the Democratic party.

Where party loyalty comes into it, is that if you question the hardliners' attitudes they accuse you of "aiding the enemy" so to speak. My point was that this is b.s. coming from them, because they're doing more to fracture the support base than anyone else (the hardline "with us or against us" attitude does exactly that).

[wierd]

I personally find it especially ironic, because much of their platform revolves around NOT "othering" people-- by being as offensively alienating to people who dont share their specific outlook as is humanly possible, short of resorting to actual physical violence.

[Reelya]

I did watch Chris Ray Gun's latest video right now, and he said it was "depressing" that various social justice rights groups are fighting each other rather than working together against oppression. That's ... not how an alt-right person would talk about the issues. A right-winger would find it funny, not depressing.

He was talking about this:
https://medium.com/@blmnyc/not-like-this-notopride-8b3f414a3d5a
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/black-lives-matter-toronto-makes-surprise-appearance-at-pride-parade/article35460305/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/black-lives-matter-toronto-pride-2017-1.4177554

Basically, Black Lives Matter activists have repeatedly blockaded LGBT Pride parades, because gay police officers are allowed to march and because their demands have not been met for

a commitment to transform the culture and events of PRIDE to center the lives of of those most marginalized — queer and transgender Black communities.

Which comes across as whiny "why isn't it all about us?" shit. And they refuse to actually coordinate with the Pride organizers until a bunch of crazy "demands" similar to the above (an ultimatun of 9 demands was issued to the LGBT Pride organizers) instead they turn up and disrupt the events and claim:

Pride is actually ours. Queer and trans people of colour actually started this. We don't need to register for a deadline, we don't need to tell you we're coming, we don't need to pay money for a float. We're just going to take up space"

[Avarice]

Its threads like these that make me wish for a nuclear winter

[alway]

Police have no place at a pride parade, nor do neo-nazis at a holocaust memorial. If you don't understand why, you should educate yourself on what it commemorates and why it was created to begin with. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots#Stonewall_Inn
They were driven out of respectable society by police for decades. But eventually, one day when the police came for them, they successfully fought back. They rioted. They threw bricks at police as police attacked them. That's the event pride parades commemorate. An 'sjw riot' as you would probably call it. Nor is abuse by police a thing of the past:
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/LGBT-Discrimination-and-Harassment-in-Law-Enforcement-March-2015.pdf
"Isn't it so sad that the oppressed aren't joining hands with their oppressors in order to whitewash away past abuse" is absolutely a thing the alt-right would, and does, and is saying in order to attempt to drive wedges between two groups whose tactics and beliefs they hate.

It's not just BLM groups either. A hell of a lot of LGBT people would very much not like police presence at these events. Not in the parade, and not as security either; again, for obvious reasons. It's not meant to be 'a slap in the face' as the police representative put it, it's meant to be a brick in the face.

Likewise, there's a lot of complaints recently about businesses getting involved with pride. Businesses willing to put a float in a parade to show how LGBT friendly they are, but who aren't willing to put in place policies to prevent discrimination against LGBT employees or customers or even give a crap outside of a PR event.

You don't get to use your power to abuse people and then expect them to welcome you openly.

[sluissa]

You're not telling neo-nazis not to go to a holocaust memorial. You're telling Germans they can't go. People who for the most part had nothing to do with the crime being memorialized . People who would do well to take part in a memoral. Help reach out, connect, and ensure that that sort of thing never happens again. People who might otherwise not learn about what happened and in time allow it to fall out of public consciousness.

Taking that attitude, alway, is dangerous, wrong and just flat out ignorant.

I'd even welcome a neo-nazi to a holocaust memorial as long as they remained respectful while they were there. There is never a point where someone is beyond learning. Beyond changing their mind. But that's just my opinion. I don't run any such memorials, thus I have no say in it.

[Sheb]

You're not telling neo-nazis not to go to a holocaust memorial. You're telling Germans they can't go. People who for the most part had nothing to do with the crime being memorialized . People who would do well to take part in a memoral. Help reach out, connect, and ensure that that sort of thing never happens again. People who might otherwise not learn about what happened and in time allow it to fall out of public consciousness.

Taking that attitude, alway, is dangerous, wrong and just flat out ignorant.

I'd even welcome a neo-nazi to a holocaust memorial as long as they remained respectful while they were there. There is never a point where someone is beyond learning. Beyond changing their mind. But that's just my opinion. I don't run any such memorials, thus I have no say in it.

Uh, you're analogy is slightly off, because they're ok with policemen joining the pride, just not in their capacity as policemen. It's more like banning representatives of the Turkish government in their official capacity at an Armenian genocide memorial.

[wierd]

This of course, is begging the question either way.

The purpose of the police is NOT to oppress. The purpose of the police is to provide an essential civil service, namely law enforcement. Law enforcement these days has a bad reputation, but without it, things would be much much worse.  It is wrong to say that police have no place at a pride parade; the police provide a vital and needed service should some moron decide that "burning faggots" is a great idea, and hurls a molotov cocktail, or some other absurd hate filled action.  The police not being present would only make things very very terrible. The police NEED to be there, to provide protection, FOR the people having the parade.

If the police are NOT fullfilling that civic duty, to serve and protect, then they need to be brought back into line. (Oh gawd do our current police forces need to be brought back into line...) 

This is more like saying "Men aren't welcome at a women's rape counseling camp."  It begs the question that all men are rapists, just like the prior begs the question that all cops are homophobic haters, and doubles down to state that there is simply no place for them there, ever. (in both examples.)

Edit-- I think it necessary as well to point out that simply because you do not want somebody or some group of people to be present at a function, does not mean you are entitled to satisfaction on that desire-- which is exactly what the "No police at the pride!" thing is.

Take for instance, white nationalism.  What do you think lynch mobs, racist brutality, coopted courts, and all that BULLSHIT actually *IS*, aside from trying to make an "undesired" group not be around anymore?

Or we could go with the Middle East, and its fervent desire to drive all the Jews out, and to destroy Israel. It does not matter that Israel has been a bunch of dickheads over there-- they have a right to exist, and should not be driven out just because others who are either more powerful, or more numerous want them gone.

The irony is that the reason for the pride parades IN THE FIRST PLACE, is to demonstrate that a group that had previously been the VICTIMS of such an organized effort to expel, or eradicate the presence of, can now assemble openly, freely, and without reprisal.  THEN THEY HAVE TO GO AND DO THIS SHIT.

Sorry, but NO alway. Just NO.

[Cthulhu]

I did watch Chris Ray Gun's latest video right now, and he said it was "depressing" that various social justice rights groups are fighting each other rather than working together against oppression. That's ... not how an alt-right person would talk about the issues. A right-winger would find it funny, not depressing.

He was talking about this:
https://medium.com/@blmnyc/not-like-this-notopride-8b3f414a3d5a
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/black-lives-matter-toronto-makes-surprise-appearance-at-pride-parade/article35460305/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/black-lives-matter-toronto-pride-2017-1.4177554

Basically, Black Lives Matter activists have repeatedly blockaded LGBT Pride parades, because gay police officers are allowed to march and because their demands have not been met for

a commitment to transform the culture and events of PRIDE to center the lives of of those most marginalized — queer and transgender Black communities.

Which comes across as whiny "why isn't it all about us?" shit. And they refuse to actually coordinate with the Pride organizers until a bunch of crazy "demands" similar to the above (an ultimatun of 9 demands was issued to the LGBT Pride organizers) instead they turn up and disrupt the events and claim:

Pride is actually ours. Queer and trans people of colour actually started this. We don't need to register for a deadline, we don't need to tell you we're coming, we don't need to pay money for a float. We're just going to take up space"

It sounds like he's probably against identity politics as a captured apparatus meant to commodify resistance and break up various groups that should be united in their resistance. 

I'm also generally of the opinion that "SJW" is a boogeyman word that does more harm to a discussion than good, but if I had to define it it would be these people who got stuck in the Second Matrix and think they're fighting the good fight when they contribute to fracturing what should've been a unified resistance (if everyone fucked by the current status quo united that would be 99% of the population.  this is classic class warfare, just on a slightly more subtle level)

On a similar note LateStageCapitalism finally drew the line and banned me when I implied that cop-hate is engineered class warfare.  Second Matrix.  Exiting plato's cave just to walk into a different one and sit back down.  They're salty cause I outcommunismed them and I'm not even a communist.  You need to commandeer the means of violence to overthrow the government, so you make the cops fear the people and the people hate the cops.  Antifa trying to play checkers while the capitalists are playing 4d chess.