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[Frumple]

I hardly think they were pouring anything over your posts, but I do kinda wonder where they were going trying to make it sound like you were coming off as supporting some sort of conservative depiction of the sjw phenomenon?

Like, really? Reelya never struck me as remotely conservative, and as a liberal myself the frustration that comes from trying to share a tent with the sjw crowd is--dare I say it--triggering my aversion to trigger warnings and the use of vaguely defined wrongs to attack "your own" side. The scare quotes are there because they're not on my side beyond an aversion to the hatefully excessive conservative shit like the trumpcare nonsense.

There's a difference between being conservative or whathaveyou, and pushing the same narratives, using the same terminology and arguments, and so on. Basically buying their formulation of how whatever the particular subject is works and spreading it. If you're talking examples last year's election was a holy fuck blatant one, with left-wing media and various babblers throwing right-wing nonsense around all over the damn place. It's not intentional support so much as making the metaphorical discussion (all dialogue culture wide, etc.) one more tolerant of that sort of stuff.

Alway in particular didn't seem to be saying ree was conservative, exactly, just that in relation the general sjw label mess ree's entirely willing to roll with conservative et al talking points, world views, and so on. Which I'd agree with fairly comfortably. Ree's definitely liberal but they're also pretty willing to present arguments and whatnot that are straight out the stateside conservative's playbook, and tends to react rather defensively if it's pointed out. Everyone slips up from time to time, though, particularly if they're often in or around communities that are indulging with regularity.

I'm well aware that it's almost entirely a liberal (or left wing, if you will) phenomenon, as shown by it's prevalence in colleges, which have a highly liberal bent. There probably are some conservatives who do that kind of stuff and conservatives aren't innocent in indulging in identity politics, but the great majority are certainly left wing ideologically.

ChairmanP ninja'd it, but no, it's not even remotely particularly liberal inclined. I'd actually say it's the exact opposite, that conservatives in general in the US are notably more pervasive about indulging in identity politics and related stuff. They just don't call it that and throw a massive shitfit if someone pegs their junk as what it is, and rather than being prevalent (to the extent that it actually is, which usually kinda' isn't) in occasional colleges it swallows entire towns, counties, states...

[sluissa]

Yes, everyone slips up and has the "wrong" opinion once in a while.

 

[Reelya]

Alway in particular didn't seem to be saying ree was conservative, exactly,

I broke down exactly which points alway made and why I disagreed with them on the post on page 2 for precisely this reason.

<snip>

It's pretty clear what exact things always was doing.

In response, I'd suggest people actuallly go watch Haidt's videos and instead of a "don't go there" argument based on strawmans, we actually discuss what he says is happening and it's implications for the education system.

I tried to summarize the videos briefly in a tl;dr to be polite so people could read the points if they didn't have time to watch the videos. It seems that was a mistake on my part because people were able to strawman my summary, dismiss the strawman then simultaneously claim that it absolved them of having to actually watch the videos for themselves or have an actual coherent response to what's in the videos.

If you actually look at the content of Jonothan Haidt's videos, which is about how some ideologies shut down discission, then this is highly ironic.

[Max™]

Looking back over it, there was a reaction to you using terms as a strawmanned conservative might "as long as it can be made to sound vaguely liberal/left" which is why I'm so frustrated with being "on the same side" as these people.

Should that be "these" people or these "people" I wonder?

Nah, I'm kidding, you identify as some sort of prey animal you aren't a person and can be eaten now.

[feelotraveller]

I'm uneasy with the buy-in to two-sides talk.  Isn't politics a n-dimensional polygon rather than a classic 'us' and 'them' right wing trope?  At least before being grabbed by the mass-marketing of democracy.  And I take it that this was (a positive) part of alway's contribution: subsuming a bunch of events under a movement (...even if justified...) gives it an additional power for the forces of virality.

[TempAcc]

I find it hilarious that people still go so far as to ascribe a particular set of ideas exclusively to one side of the political spectrum, so if someone agrees with stuff you generally ascribe to the "other side" they're basically treated like sinners.

As political polarization increases, the probability of your political stance becoming a religion approaches 1

Guy is literally talking about how discourse is being shut down by ideologies simply tagging stuff it doesnt agree with as wrong and evil and suddenly that is exactly what happens.

[scriver]

If you don't use the right words you're not one of us, and if you're not one of us you're wrong. Tribalism at it's finest. And a great way to insulate yourself against any kind of criticism regardless of source.

[VislarRn]

As a person from north-east Europe (from one of the Baltic states) I can see this sjw ideology slowly leaching here too. Even though, I am studying social sciences, I haven't found that much left wing bias from academia (surprisingly). Mostly people seem to be open to different ideas. I can even remember having been taught islamo-critical ideas and theories about different intellectual capabilities among different ethnic backgrounds. Something that I imagine would be never possible in the states I think.

Most sjw thing comes from media. In last five years it has become extremely biased. Typical arguments are against my country's native population, who are considered racists, bigots and phobic. They have picked up this radical left jargon perfectly.

No sjw has attacked me personally, but I have witnessed an attack against my friend when I arranged nationalist meeting in the public location, even though I got all permissions for prom police and everything was perfectly legal. And yes, the attacker was art student.

Among the young people, I kinda see this collapse of the center phenomenon. That means most people are leaning away from center to more extreme left or right. I presume that sooner or later we are having many different media outlets providing echo chambers to different population groups, If this happens, then bye bye sanity and rational public discussion

[Cthulhu]

Yes, everyone slips up and has the "wrong" opinion once in a while.

 

I also had a little wew lad moment there.

SJW is a great word to taboo, since everyone defines it differently.  It's also got motte and bailey built in since any discussion of it can freely be redirected to "you think the world shouldn't be just?" But that's what happens when you argue over ill-defined and nebulous terms.

[Frumple]

Yes, everyone slips up and has the "wrong" opinion once in a while.

 

Try reading a bit more carefully. Or at all, really. Has nothing to do with opinion, which is why I was going out of my friggin' way to avoid framing it like that, just how it's being presented. People do, in fact, occasionally use arguments that are dead on for or very much strongly resembling the ones used by proponents for stuff they're in opposition with. That there's issues with using the same argument used as support by people you're at odds with should be blatantly bloody obvious. It isn't, apparently, but it's not like that was some kind of shun-the-other bullshit.

Looking back over it, there was a reaction to you using terms as a strawmanned conservative might "as long as it can be made to sound vaguely liberal/left" which is why I'm so frustrated with being "on the same side" as these people.

Problem isn't with some kind of strawman conservative, it's with the actual bloody ones and the actual sodding rhetoric and argumentation methods they use. The reason it's a concern is because when you're spreading the same message you're spreading the same goddamn message, regardless of what you're trying to support with it. And maybe you take a second to make sure you're making the point you're intending to make instead of setting things up to make folks arguing against you have an easier time, by feeding into their talking points, their perspective on the issue, and on, and on, and on. There's meeting half way and understanding and all that shit and then there's functionally bending over for folks that are trying to fuck you and most of what you stand for, and it's damn easy to fall into doing the latter if you're not paying a particular sort of attention.

Again, this is something that was freakishly obvious in effect just a year ago, and has been SOP to attempt to inculcate for the more assholish folks involved in american political discourse for years before that. This isn't some kind of straw man from the aether bullshit, it's friggin' talk radio and might-as-well-be-bulletpoint rhetoric and junk along those lines.

[Harry Baldman]

As a person from north-east Europe (from one of the Baltic states) I can see this sjw ideology slowly leaching here too. Even though, I am studying social sciences, I haven't found that much left wing bias from academia (surprisingly). Mostly people seem to be open to different ideas. I can even remember having been taught islamo-critical ideas and theories about different intellectual capabilities among different ethnic backgrounds. Something that I imagine would be never possible in the states I think.

Most sjw thing comes from media. In last five years it has become extremely biased. Typical arguments are against my country's native population, who are considered racists, bigots and phobic. They have picked up this radical left jargon perfectly.

This is funny as the Baltics are, to my knowledge as a Latvian, actually quite genuinely and alarmingly racist. I've heard a bit about the negative experiences of black folks, including being unfavorably compared to Nigeria, to say nothing of the local Romani. It's a weird kind of racism in that it's spinning its wheels without a lot of obviously foreign people to be properly racist against, but when it does connect, hoo boy. And that's not even getting into the white nationalist folks.

I'd say genuine social justice matters leaching into the discourse is not just long overdue, it's probably quite useful with us being in the EU and quibbling over how many literal dozens of refugees we'd be able to take on. And as for nationalist meetings getting disrupted, haven't heard anything about that around my parts, just the regular yearly rumblings and the occasional punch-up on March 16 and May 9, but those seem mostly calmer as of late as opposed to the other way around.

Of course, when you're talking about SJWs, you might be referring to the "Baltic Russians are oppressed and subject to local fascist abuse" narrative that plays well in Russian media and is occasionally locally embraced as well, in which case you might have a bit more of a point since that's a very muddled point with a somewhat unclear answer.

Among the young people, I kinda see this collapse of the center phenomenon. That means most people are leaning away from center to more extreme left or right. I presume that sooner or later we are having many different media outlets providing echo chambers to different population groups, If this happens, then bye bye sanity and rational public discussion

I do wonder about this though, and struggle to think of any particular examples in my experience. I guess there's a couple people I know who are into the white nationalism stuff, but like I said, people being racist is hardly breaking news around these parts. Don't really see too many Marxists (cultural, anarchistic or any other flavor you'd care to mention) about as a biologist, I'm sad to say. Suppose there's a few people into animal liberation, for what it's worth.

[Cthulhu]

Yes, everyone slips up and has the "wrong" opinion once in a while.

 

Try reading a bit more carefully. Or at all, really. Has nothing to do with opinion, which is why I was going out of my friggin' way to avoid framing it like that, just how it's being presented. People do, in fact, occasionally use arguments that are dead on for or very much strongly resembling the ones used by proponents for stuff they're in opposition with. That there's issues with using the same argument used as support by people you're at odds with should be blatantly bloody obvious. It isn't, apparently, but it's not like that was some kind of shun-the-other bullshit.

Depends on the argument.  Is it a case where you're using logic that can also argue the opposite of your point, or are you just using logic that's also used by people you disagree with on some things?  Because the latter is 100% shun-the-other.

The real answer is that if we've gotten to the point where the other side is viewed as an enemy then we're past the point of cooperation and compromise and we should partition the united states along political lines ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Playergamer]

I had a post on /r/latestagecapitalism removed because I referred to the Earth as "dumb"

why are you posting on latestagecapitalism.

[Cthulhu]

It's prime shitposting grounds.

[Playergamer]

It's prime shitposting grounds.

carry on shitizen.