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Author Topic: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist  (Read 1666 times)

Milkymalk

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One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« on: July 03, 2017, 07:02:26 pm »

I finally thought I managed to set up a military - or at least a training squad.

I don't have any armor yet so I made some wooden shields and wooden training axes, put 10 of my useless dwarves in a squad, set the scedule to "Train, min 7", assigned barracks to them with T active and set them on active duty. 7 of them seem to always be there and train, but:
DF says they don't have an axe or shield. DTherapist says their equipment is complete.
Their axe skill doesn't go up, but they already have level 2 or 3 in dodger and level 2 in fighter.

So what gives?
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Quietust

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2017, 07:34:11 pm »

DF says they don't have an axe or shield. DTherapist says their equipment is complete.
If DF says they don't have axes or shields equipped (ideally, you should be checking this by viewing their Inventory directly), then Therapist is the one that's lying.

Remember, Therapist is a third-party tool that analyzes the game's memory in an attempt to deduce its current state, and when that information is not fully known, mistakes are likely to result.
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It's amazing how dwarves can make a stack of bones completely waterproof and magmaproof.
It's amazing how they can make an entire floodgate out of the bones of 2 cats.

Milkymalk

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2017, 08:56:23 pm »

Ok, so how do I check what went wrong? I clearly have the equipment somewhere, I watched it being made and I usually don't forbid items either.

One or two of them have a shield though, and I got the message that Urist McAxerecruit got attached to his training axe.
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Starver

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2017, 10:01:08 pm »

Assuming sufficient Bookkeeper, check stock in the more expanded mode, check the colours/labels (e.g. seeing F(orbidden) labels, despite what you think) and Zoom to each shield individually to identify where it is/who holds it.

There's other checks you could do, but this should work well enough for the relatively few items you have to worry about.  Then, according to what you find, progress from there.  (Unless I'm just not synchronised with your situation, and maybe not the subtleties of the game version that I can't check right now, being away from a live copy.)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 10:04:12 pm by Starver »
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feelotraveller

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2017, 12:20:07 am »

Ok, so how do I check what went wrong? I clearly have the equipment somewhere, I watched it being made and I usually don't forbid items either.

One or two of them have a shield though, and I got the message that Urist McAxerecruit got attached to his training axe.

I'm not sure anything went wrong.  My understanding is that Therapist reports whether or not equipment is assigned.  Whether and when the dwarfs get around to picking up that stuff and equipping it is another matter.  ;)

Wiki advises giving the squad an order to force the equipping process.  You could try that.
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knedl

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2017, 01:55:51 am »

Dwarfs pick up equipment with some time delay and when you set up the squad and set them to train there is going to be difference between therapist and DF in regards to what equipment and armor is used. After a month of training in game refresh therapist and it should show the correct/same data as DF. Also set the dwarfs to wear uniform all the time.
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Milkymalk

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2017, 10:13:59 pm »

Indeed there seems to have been quite some delay. I didn't re-check their in-game inventory, but after a few months their axe skills went up in no time. Maybe it was some order I gave as you said.
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Thatotherguy23

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2017, 03:13:51 am »

Just chiming in my own experience, though it's probably been worked out by now:

You can always (v)iew the dwarf to know what they're wearing to be sure. The military screen ingame shows what's assigned to them, even if they don't have it equipped yet that specific item is assigned to them and either they're waiting for it to be accessible or they're doing something else/on the way to the item already or...anything really could have happened. Only trust that screen to see what you've assigned and 'if' an item has been allocated to the dwarf or not yet.

Therapist is what I check first and last to be sure, as it also shows if it's equipped right now or not 100% of the time, honestly always through many dozens of fortresses. Which allows me to find that dwarf/s, force his uniform (or make that item if I didn't have enough) so I can wait until he equips it, then allow him to wear whatever other clothing he wants on top.
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Purdurabo

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2017, 04:54:29 am »

The problem with axes and picks as weapons is that your military needs to compete with your civilians for them. So either use other weapons or make sure you have a large surplus of those weapons. Also having a military dwarf also doing woodcutting or mining can cause problems.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2017, 11:08:14 am »

While I usually don't use so many woodcutters that I'd need a surplus greater than 1, they aren't supposed to use training axes ever since 43.03 anyway, so there shouldn't be a conflict.

Milkymalk

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2017, 11:54:08 am »

The problem with axes and picks as weapons is that your military needs to compete with your civilians for them.
I doubt that this was the problem as I explicitly assigned them wooden training axes. So unless my woodcutters are idiots ant try to cut trees with those, that schould be no issue.

Well, the fort now fell because of an undead siege - no, the besiegers left the fort alone. It was because of ONE reanimated billy goat head that bound 50% of my dorfs around him with nobody being able to smash it and no way to forge some maiming weapons. My next fort will have maces instead of axes.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2017, 12:22:46 pm »

Won't do nothing against reanimated head (parts). It's bug. They cannot be killed in combat (or close enough not to make a difference), but if you only have vanilla means to deal with them atom smashing, cave-ins, and cage traps work. I use the DFHack "exterminate him/her" command to get rid of those (fighting everything else normally).
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Milkymalk

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2017, 03:57:32 pm »

Doesn't "smashing" damage (what's the word?) completely destroy body parts?
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2017, 04:30:41 pm »

Must hit them first. If it's too small to hit, it won't be hurt. A kitten may kill a giant.

PatrikLundell

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Re: One of them is lying - Fortress or Therapist
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2017, 04:54:26 pm »

As Fleeting Frames indicated, the problem is not the damage itself, but that you never hit the blasted thing with a damage dealing blow, including passing through without damage, and I think there's a fair bit of glancing blows with no damage as well.

It's a bug: don't apply logic to why it doesn't work properly.
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