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Author Topic: Best way to train fighting skills?  (Read 4738 times)

bloop_bleep

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Best way to train fighting skills?
« on: June 30, 2017, 03:03:25 pm »

Hello everyone. I'm sure this has been asked before somewhere, but what is the best way to train fighting skills? I'm looking for something repetitive that I can do for a pretty long time without moving around too much. Wildlife seems to be too rare to efficiently do this, and going crundle-hunting in the caverns usually gets me lost. Though I suspect that it's probably because I usually go for the kill once I disable an opponent, instead of practicing on it, but I'm not sure which body parts I should attack and in which order for best training potential. Thanks in advance for any help.

EDIT: Also, my companion got badly injured after fighting a cyclops and is currently unconscious. Should I leave him there to die or is there a way to carry him?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 03:05:04 pm by bloop_bleep »
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FakerFangirl

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2017, 03:24:24 pm »

what is the best way to train fighting skills? I'm looking for something repetitive that I can do for a pretty long time without moving around too much. Wildlife seems to be too rare to efficiently do this, and going crundle-hunting in the caverns usually gets me lost. Though I suspect that it's probably because I usually go for the kill once I disable an opponent, instead of practicing on it, but I'm not sure which body parts I should attack and in which order for best training potential. Thanks in advance for any help.
Find some weak/frail/skinny wildlife, unequip your weapon, and grab it by the lower body or neck with your free upper arm. Once you are in the hug position, place your finger over the '.' key and commence training: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgwFkEUcIK8&t=1m31s

EDIT: Also, my companion got badly injured after fighting a cyclops and is currently unconscious. Should I leave him there to die or is there a way to carry him?
He's a goner. Have you tried turning him into a werebeast or vampire?

If you really want to be sadistic, you can try bashing something repeatedly until it bleeds. The longer and more painful someone's death is, the more exp you gain. Though I find that to be too cruel and risky. It is easier to just setup camp near a goblin pit and hack goblins.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2017, 03:33:22 pm »

Cool! Also, how do you train weapon skill efficiently? And armor/shield using?

Also, the guy just regained consciousness, and he's not that hurt. It's mainly his right leg that's mangled pretty bad, but he refuses to use the crutch that I gave him.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2017, 03:36:54 pm »

Weapon skill: Ctrl+r, use a blunt attack on a toe or something, Ctrl+r, Ctrl+u 99 ctlr+p. (Though I imagine mining is harder to train)

Armor/shield: get the wild animals to aggro you with training axe tap, then wait them (but don't pass out). Leave dodge training last.

Uzu Bash

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2017, 03:37:11 pm »

I think the best way to train fighting skills is to stop being such a fucking pantywaist about getting hit that you have to do repetitive anything before you can just play the fucking game.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2017, 04:12:53 pm »

Well, see, it's pretty much impossible to "just play the game" if you keep getting creamed by NPCs due to having low skills whenever you try to do anything even moderately interesting.

I killed several packs of cats, crabs, and giant tortoises and killed some bandits and dungeon men, but that only got me to Novice Swordsdwarf. I then went "screw this" and stormed a dark pit. I got killed by the first goblin spearman I met.
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Uzu Bash

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2017, 04:40:31 pm »

If you're getting killed by cats, crabs, random wildlife and recruits, then you aren't fighting smart. If you fight smart then you can start fighting at any skill level and develop from there.


EDIT: Here, read this: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148015.0


That repetitive horseshit is beneath an adventurer, stop demeaning yourself with it. Fight smart. My character is at the peak of physical capabilities yet my shield use is still only Adept. Do you think I survived by relying on defensive skills alone? Read that manual and internalize it.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 04:51:02 pm by Uzu Bash »
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mikekchar

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2017, 05:00:14 pm »

I can' remember who it was (it was a recent thread, so you can poke around), but there was some good advice posted recently, which I tried.  The key to understanding the combat system is understanding how time works.  Pressing '.' waits 10 "ticks".  Pressing ',' waits 1 "tick".  If you stand next to an adversary, you can press 'A' and see what they are doing this 'tick'.  There are 3 general phases: recovering from attacking, doing nothing (which only takes 1 tick), and about to attack you.  The higher the observation skill you have, the more information you will get.

Unless the adversary is very far away from you, you never want to use the '.' key (unless you are absolutely sure they can't hit you).  Each of your moves takes time (X numbers of ticks) and each of their moves takes time (Y numbers of ticks).  You can measure how long their moves take by simply pressing 'A', and if they are not attacking you then pressing 'ESC' and then ',' to wait a tick.  You can repeat until they are about to attack you.  Then you can dodge.  Against reasonably unskilled opponents (especially wildlife), this will work every time.

Once you get the hang of the amount of time it takes, you will see that after you dodge, the opponent will sometime/often be in the 'recovering from attacking' state.  This usually gives you 5 or so ticks to attack.  With the 'A' attack, you can choose an appropriate target.  Then you can use 'u' for a fast attack and if you have a speedy weapon you can often get your attack in before they can get their attack in.

There are a few areas that are useful to concentrate on -- legs/feet, lower body, head, arms, depending on the scenario.  Legs/feet, when hit will often cause the opponent to fall.  This will slow down their movement.  Lower body can make them nauseous which slows their attack speed by a lot (in half?).  Head can stun them or knock them unconscious (slow their speed/put them completely at your unlikely mercy).  Arms can cause them to drop weapons, shields.  Doing damage also invokes penalties in their attacks and makes you harder to hit.

If you find that the opponent is parrying or blocking your attacks, you can choose the 'x', "precise" attacks.  These come at a speed penalty so be careful.  However, you can usually get your attack in.  Normally you want to target the arms to disarm the opponent.

Using this technique it is fairly easy to build up your stats without having to resort to power-levelling techniques.  Again, the idea is to think defensively, dance around and only actually attack when you have the maximum number of ticks as well as a good strategic location to hit.  It's useful to carry a shield for the times when you attack and you are just a bit too slow (so the opponent gets an attack in before you can dodge).

As for starting skills, I recommend concentrating on Fighter, Dodging, and Observation.  You should be at least novice in Shield and Armor User.  More points in Shield increases the likelihood of getting a shield, but you can often pick one up fairly easily.  It's important to get Armour early and then dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge.  This will build up your Armour User skill pretty quickly and then you can progressively add more armour.

Also, read the Kisat Dur thread (really, it should be required reading for adventure mode).  And finally, don't get overconfident -- especially against multiple opponents.  If anyone gets a single lucky shot in, it can be ultimately fatal.  Running away can save your life.
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Uzu Bash

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2017, 05:10:39 pm »

That's very good explanation, thank you. Don't forget that striking what your opponent is attacking with will always deflect it, even if you miss. It's a perfect defense. I even use it to protect my companions, when I see my opponent grabbing, strike for what I think is the dominant hand. If I see them biting, strike for the teeth, mouth, head, and sometimes this is rewarded with a shower of teeth or an instant kill.
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peasant cretin

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2017, 07:21:25 pm »

Just to add on to mikekchar's great post.
(also @mikekchar, I'm guessing you were referring to Uzu Bash's post in No-armor tactics)

This is for measuring attack speed.

The raws tell us most weapons and natural attacks (punches, bites, gores, etc.) are ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3 which is to say 6 ticks long in terms of time. Two exceptions to this, kicks and whip attacks, are ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:4:4.

Aimed (strike) attacks will add or subtract from the PREPARE_AND_RECOVER.

The types of aimed weapon/natural attacks are:
Quick Attack  subtracts 1 tick from both the PREPARE_AND_RECOVER
Standard Attack  does not add or subtract anything from PREPARE_AND_RECOVER
Heavy Attack  will add 1 tick to both the PREPARE_AND_RECOVER
Precise Attack  will add *2* ticks to the PREPARE and 0 ticks to RECOVER
Wild Attack  subtracts 1 tick from the PREPARE, but adds *2* ticks to RECOVER
(The above information can be confirmed by "see-it-yourselfers" by testing this in arena mode, or by readers here in Dwarf Fortress Talk 21.)

The fastest offensive maneuver (whether Quick Attack or failed Grab) will have a PREPARE_AND_RECOVER of 2:2, while the slowest will be some type of modified kick/whip attack.

////////////////////

Here, in this awesome post, Murphy breaks down the tick cost for defensive moves (block, dodge, etc). Useful for multiples, when you don't want to work the pre-Kisat Dur exploit multi-attack combo Quick attack + dodge away to kite out the mob you're fighting.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 07:29:47 pm by peasant cretin »
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2017, 11:22:16 pm »

If you're getting killed by cats, crabs, random wildlife and recruits, then you aren't fighting smart.
I think you misunderstood me. I don't get killed by wildlife and recruits, I kill them, but get virtually no experience from it. Consequently, I get aced by an average goblin spearman although I have full set of iron armor, an iron shield, and the starting attributes recommended by the quick start guide.

Though I get what you're saying about having to fight smart. I mostly self-learned how to fight in Adventure Mode, so I'm generally short of expert advice. I'll check out the Kisat Dur thread.

EDIT: I looked at the Kisat Dur thread. It seemed like some really good advice. I suppose I should substitute my sword in for scratching and my morningstar for punching?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 11:44:47 pm by bloop_bleep »
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The closest thing Bay12 has to a flamewar is an argument over philosophy that slowly transitioned to an argument about quantum mechanics.
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FakerFangirl

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2017, 05:42:30 am »

Cool! Also, how do you train weapon skill efficiently? And armor/shield using?

Also, the guy just regained consciousness, and he's not that hurt. It's mainly his right leg that's mangled pretty bad, but he refuses to use the crutch that I gave him.
You can try buying one of his wielded items and giving him the crutch again. If his home fort is nearby you could go there and cancel the adventuring agreement, and if you have a camp you could assign him a bed and cancel the adventuring agreement, or you could have him start a work project and leave the camp while he is working on it. Or if you really want to be a nice guy, Both :)

you can just play the fucking game.

It's the last bogeyman that gets you. Also I want to preserve the local civilized population.

I killed several packs of cats, crabs, and giant tortoises and killed some bandits and dungeon men, but that only got me to Novice Swordsdwarf. I then went "screw this" and stormed a dark pit. I got killed by the first goblin spearman I met.
*nod*
Sounds about right.
Next time it'll be a bogeyman.

Unless the adversary is very far away from you, you never want to use the '.' key
It pauses when they enter a tile adjacent to you. Then ',' once and their attack will commence.

EDIT: I looked at the Kisat Dur thread. It seemed like some really good advice. I suppose I should substitute my sword in for scratching and my morningstar for punching?
Getting hit just once can lead to death. @Uzu Bash: I did not know about the deflecting. I thought you had to use parry to deflect.

Anyways, the more chances you get to deflect/block/dodge, the safer. If you are fighting a tough monster you can wait for it to start an attack and then multi-attack+block+dodge simultaneously. If you there are too many enemies, you can try cutting off both feet and letting it bleed out.

If a speargoblin is a problem, then take away the problem so you can just fight the goblin.
Yeah I go for the highest-value equipment it is holding.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 01:50:16 pm by FakerFangirl »
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Uzu Bash

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2017, 08:07:46 am »

I think you misunderstood me. I don't get killed by wildlife and recruits, I kill them, but get virtually no experience from it. Consequently, I get aced by an average goblin spearman although I have full set of iron armor, an iron shield, and the starting attributes recommended by the quick start guide.
The quickstart guide is out of date and short on helpful information. High strength is only an edge at the start, by giving more carrying capacity and higher early damage, but strength above agility will reduce your maximum speed, which is far more critical. You want higher agility, and good endurance so you can get the attack rate benefit of staying in jog mode with less stamina loss.

Quote
EDIT: I looked at the Kisat Dur thread. It seemed like some really good advice. I suppose I should substitute my sword in for scratching and my morningstar for punching?
Everything in there could be applied to any weapon, you don't need to be a purist to make good use of the information. Pure unarmed actually isn't viable against massive creatures like megas, or creatures that feel no pain or fear like night creatures, but cross training will give you a lot more range and opportunity of attacks and improve overall combat and fitness. Strike/block tactics work on the same principles as strike/dodge, though a little more safely. Using shied with wrestling gives you one free hand, and raises all of your physical stats quickly. If a speargoblin is a problem, then take away the problem so you can just fight the goblin.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 08:10:13 am by Uzu Bash »
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charcharmunro

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2017, 12:28:02 pm »

The rather cheese way to raise wrestler and fighter is to sneak up to a horseshoe grab, grab it, then mash . until it passes out from trying to get out of your grip.
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Uzu Bash

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Re: Best way to train fighting skills?
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2017, 02:20:31 pm »

Everyone already knows the cheesy way. Everyone has figured out how to make the brain-numbing time investment in actions so boring, repetitive and petty that no adventurer is required because macros can automate it. We invented computers for them to perform tedious shit for us, not for us to do it for them.

You don't have to! You can immediately begin doing the kind of things good stories are about. And while mastering this, you can actually learn and improve from your deaths, instead of following up onerous hours of 'pre-adventuring' with a YASD that makes it all so pointless that you save-scum to save yourself the frustration of doing it all over so soon.
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