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Author Topic: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms  (Read 2892 times)

SixOfSpades

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Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« on: June 25, 2017, 10:06:59 am »

Bedroom clutter would not give us any new features, it would mainly be just for flavor/realism. I know, a lot of these items are not yet implemented, although they easily could be. I'm making this list of suggestions for 3 reasons: 1) In almost all canon lore, dwarves love acquiring things, & hate giving them up without adequate compensation. 2) Personal possessions is the natural jumping-off point for the Crime and Economy arcs. 3) Just as letting dwarves claim their own bedrooms can ease some of the hassle of micromanagement, letting them furnish their own rooms does the same thing (to a less meaningful extent).

Players will want to reclaim (& then trade away/destroy) a lot of these items, to reduce FPS drag. Dwarves will want to retain them. This creates another dimension of fort oversight: Is your fortress a capitalist haven where everyone can hoard at will? A totalitarian regime where the militia regularly kicks down doors to search for contraband? An industrial commune, where the Record Keeper only cares about actual fortress property (like food, raw materials, militia gear, & designated trade goods), and doesn't give a damn about claimed, personal property?

Good clothes: Something to wear to parties, but too nice for everyday use.
Toys (mostly children, but adults might keep a treasured toy for a few years, especially if they feel likely to have kids at a young age)
Tools (usually borrowed from a workshop they consider theirs, especially if they fear theft)
Weapons / armor
Games: Playing cards, gaming tiles, chess / checkers sets, bowling / ninepins sets, and especially marbles.
Potted plants, especially for Growers / Herbalists, and even more so if said plants are bioluminescent.
Jewelry (if the dwarf owns more than they feel like wearing at the same time)
Coins: Even if you don't make any, the goblins should. You might get an economy whether you like it or not.
Trophies: Other objects carried by creatures personally slain, not parts of the creatures themselves. They paid the iron price.
Gems: Mostly cut, but possibly rough (still in matrix, if possible). Not necessarily hoarded, just 1 or 2 to play with & dazzle the eye. May be swallowed by young children.
Musical instruments: These need not be owned, the dwarf could be borrowing it to see if he has any talent worth pursuing.
Religious iconography
     Any of the above, but displayed solely as artwork
Actual artworks: Dwarves should greatly desire depictions of themselves & their loved ones. More modest dwarves should claim only low-quality carvings in low-cost material, while the more self-important could walk off with gem-encrusted gold statuettes that were clearly meant for trade. HUGE crime potential here.
Old clothes (obviously)
"Borrowed" library books
Candles / Matches
Crafting scraps: Oddments of cloth/bone/wood/leather, etc., depending on the dwarf's profession. Maybe the scrap can be made into something, maybe not.
Furniture: If the size of the room allows, especially shelves & coffers to hold all of these other objects.
Quilts / rugs / tapestries: Makes the room more homey.
Non-perishable food/drink, especially if the dwarf is susceptible to food cravings, usually of a preferred type. (Should the dwarf have the authority to unilaterally declare a food stockpile?)
Dirty dishes
Garlic / wolfsbane to ward off vampires?

Another possible use of room clutter is to impress other dwarves: The amount (and type) of owned objects should influence the romantic / matrimonial leanings of possible suitors who visit the bedroom.

Any other suggestions?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2017, 04:31:15 pm »

Dwarves currently collect things depending on their personalities. Extravagant clothing, jewelry, toys, etc. A lot of it does actually end up cluttering up their bedrooms (friending on their personalities).
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2017, 01:29:50 am »

Dwarves currently collect things . . . A lot of it does actually end up cluttering up their bedrooms.
Ah. I see it has officially been too long since I got well into a Fortress Mode game. Whoops.  :-X
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 03:00:01 pm »

The thing is, dwarf bedroom clutter really needs looking over, anyway.

Dwarves currently are set so that if they like goblets, they will start squirreling goblets away... forever.  My mayor will fill any cupboard I give her nearly instantly, then set about flooding the whole (extra-large mayoral suite) room with cups, then fill the hallways outside with more cups.  Nothing stops them but death or maybe a little creative application of magma to their bedrooms when they're safely outside. 

What the game needs is some sort of moderation, an ability to throw things away, or some other way to deal with objects that the game wants dwarves to keep collecting in spite of finite space and infinite, repeating urges to collect.
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2017, 11:23:57 am »

Dwarves currently are set so that if they like goblets, they will start squirreling goblets away... forever.
IMO, what the game needs is variety in behavior. Some dwarves should follow a spartan lifestyle, some should prefer only a modest amount of possessions, some should see no need for moderation. Some dwarves should be satisfied with only 1 or 2 of their preferred object, some should desire a collection, some should be absolute hoarders. Both of these tendencies should be independent of economic power / social clout. Only if a dwarf has both the ability and the inclination, should they approach the behavior described in your mayoral example.

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What the game needs is . . . an ability to throw things away
How about giving them away? Perhaps to friends, perhaps to combat veterans, perhaps as a peace offering after an argument, perhaps to the poor. Gifts could be given in gratitude for making an item that the giver now owns/wears/uses (especially if the giver has admired said item recently), and/or for less substantial tasks (thanks for cleaning up that blood smear by my room that annoyed me yesterday). Individual dwarves trading their own goods to merchants is something that the game's long been missing, and would add potential to punish the dwarves who actually trade away goods under export restrictions, rather than the dwarves unlucky enough to have simply carried said items.
Speaking of punishment, item confiscation seems like an excellent solution both to the problem of clutter, and an alternative to beatings & imprisonment.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2017, 07:20:01 pm »

Yes. Right now dwarves collect things according to their personalities. Some are hoarders, some like extravagant clothing, some swipe jewellery. Every dorf is different. That's current, vanilla dwarf fortress.
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2017, 09:40:12 am »

That's current, vanilla dwarf fortress.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2017, 12:48:27 pm »

Technically, hoarding has been a part of DF since as far back as I've been playing.  I remember my very first fort way back in 40d having a problem because my mayor collected goblets (which is why that's the most memorable to me) since I had given her and the other nobles rooms in a hollowed-out geographical fluke of a stalagmite-like chunk of mountain over otherwise fairly level plains and backing up near some other mountains. (I gave them windows so that a natural mountain face would be like a tower facing out towards their lands.) It turned out that people would be willing to count areas nearby the room as part of the room for purposes of doing things like meeting with diplomats through a wall leading to the outside of the fortress... and occasionally having the mayor run outside the fortress to drop some of her goblets off outside the fortress around "her room".  I wound up having to deface the natural rock surface to eliminate all ramps nearby. 

Anyway, you might want to look up the concept of an "otaku room", so named for Japanese Otaku who spend every dime they have on collecting things related to their obsessions.  This is what some of our dwarves live like, but with things like earrings instead of scale models of Gundams.  (Although if they collect figurines...)

At the very least, there needs to be a sanity check where dwarves can either cram vastly larger amounts of goods into a single cabinet, or else they learn to quit when they no longer can fit their stuff inside their house.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2017, 04:50:55 pm »

Nah, they'll just gain a strong desire to get a bigger home to stuff more goblets into. ;)
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2017, 12:26:00 am »

Anyway, you might want to look up the concept of an "otaku room", so named for Japanese Otaku who spend every dime they have on collecting things related to their obsessions.
My problem with that (being emulated in DF) is that it's more gamey than realistic. An Otaku isn't simply a dedicated fan, an Otaku is a fan whose level of irrational mania is viewed as unnatural / unhealthy / perverted. If we see something like that in DF, we don't think, "Oh, this dwarf must really like ballista parts," we think, "oh, looks like Toady went a little overboard on the collecting parameters," because that's what makes more sense--to me, at least. When I look at a room like that, I don't see a dwarf with a mini-forge fetish, I see a reminder that I'm playing an unfinished game.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2017, 05:43:05 am »

Anyway, you might want to look up the concept of an "otaku room", so named for Japanese Otaku who spend every dime they have on collecting things related to their obsessions.
My problem with that (being emulated in DF) is that it's more gamey than realistic. An Otaku isn't simply a dedicated fan, an Otaku is a fan whose level of irrational mania is viewed as unnatural / unhealthy / perverted. If we see something like that in DF, we don't think, "Oh, this dwarf must really like ballista parts," we think, "oh, looks like Toady went a little overboard on the collecting parameters," because that's what makes more sense--to me, at least. When I look at a room like that, I don't see a dwarf with a mini-forge fetish, I see a reminder that I'm playing an unfinished game.

Well dwarves aren't humans.  ;)
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2017, 06:21:59 am »

Makes me wonder if the obsessive collection of objects like mugs behaviour is relevant to bugs where they hold onto objects indefinitely blocking use of the hand. They just don't have anywhere to store the object and because they can't wear the 'accessory' they posess it all the while.

But generally i agree with the OP, if they dumped it on the floor in their rooms for a lack of space, they could have simulated messy junk and subsequently other dwarves could have a opinion on how messy it is as a negative thought. (spouses, children living in the same room etc)
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2017, 12:24:33 pm »

Anyway, you might want to look up the concept of an "otaku room", so named for Japanese Otaku who spend every dime they have on collecting things related to their obsessions.
My problem with that (being emulated in DF) is that it's more gamey than realistic. An Otaku isn't simply a dedicated fan, an Otaku is a fan whose level of irrational mania is viewed as unnatural / unhealthy / perverted. If we see something like that in DF, we don't think, "Oh, this dwarf must really like ballista parts," we think, "oh, looks like Toady went a little overboard on the collecting parameters," because that's what makes more sense--to me, at least. When I look at a room like that, I don't see a dwarf with a mini-forge fetish, I see a reminder that I'm playing an unfinished game.

The cure to that is to make other dwarves recognize the existence of the packrat behavior, and discourage or shun the offender.  If Ursit McFagitophiliac gets chewed out by his mother, and eventually the mayor for leaving mugs in his hallway because his room is full, and Urist's mom comes in to throw a few of them out when he isn't around to defend it, then players will see it as intentional behavior. 
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RenoFox

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2017, 02:49:40 pm »

I think the dwarves should go more for quality than quantity with things they like. As in, a dwarf who likes mugs should look to spend his money on extravagant masterwork goblets rather than just any and all mugs he can find, and preferably look to trade up his old ones when there are better ones available.

Having dwarves furnish their own rooms is something I've always wanted to see as well. It would be nice if you could choose to designate generic places for furniture, and the residents of the room could choose what kind of furniture item they put there. A dwarf who likes obsidian could easily settle for a lower quality bed if it meant he could afford an obsidian cabinet, for example.

SixOfSpades

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Re: Stuff that could (should?) clutter dwarf bedrooms
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2017, 04:59:29 pm »

Well dwarves aren't humans.
True, so when they differ from humans I'd prefer to see them deviate in a way that makes them feel more like dwarves (by say, having a predilection for collecting dwarfy things, like gems, weapons, stone, tools, & booze) than like chunks of code (every dwarf randomly chooses one of the equally-weighted likable objects to collect, resulting in situations where Urist McSturdyLegs steals all of the fort's crutches).


Makes me wonder if the obsessive collection of objects like mugs behaviour is relevant to bugs where they hold onto objects indefinitely blocking use of the hand. They just don't have anywhere to store the object and because they can't wear the 'accessory' they posess it all the while.
Off-topic Tangent #1: That's one reason why I'd like dwarves to have pockets. Not the kind sewn into garments (although that would work too), this kind is a stiff leather pouch hanging from one's belt. Storing personal possessions there would both free the hands and give the same kind of individual flavor I suggested in my first post. Carried items might be purely personal (a dwarven child with her bag of marbles), or tied to the dwarf's profession (a Suturer with his needle & thread), or related to their office (the Captain of the Guard holds the only key to the fort's Treasury), or even a personal preference based on their profession (a Miner or Ranger not wanting to leave the fort without some tinder & flint). Even if these objects never get used, just seeing them makes the game feel more real.

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. . . if they dumped it on the floor in their rooms for a lack of space, they could have simulated messy junk and subsequently other dwarves could have a opinion on how messy it is as a negative thought. (spouses, children living in the same room etc)
Off-topic Tangent #2: In my experience, most dwarves are single, and use their rooms primarily just for sleeping. Groups of friends, especially, should occasionally congregate in their rooms. Canonically, dwarves enjoy showing hospitality (as long as they get credit for it), and would love to show off their collection of fine totems, and wide selection of home furnishings.


When I look at a room like that, I don't see a dwarf with a mini-forge fetish, I see a reminder that I'm playing an unfinished game.
The cure to that is to make other dwarves recognize the existence of the packrat behavior, and discourage or shun the offender. . . . then players will see it as intentional behavior.
Oooh, I hadn't considered interventions. But the real, real cure is actually variety: If every fort I play grows an otaku dwarf, who then has an intervention (or several), and who may or may not be "cured" before the next otaku develops, then that's not bad, that's just . . . routine, and boring. The key is to make obsession (& possibly other addictive behaviors) a relatively rare departure from regular Fort Mode play, so that every case is novel & interesting. If regular does of insanity are your thing, the Strange Moods already have that covered.

IMO, the default pattern should be "collect [1] of [almost all] types of things", not "collect [almost all] of [1] type of thing". But there should be several variations on that desire: Pairs (such as 2 totems flanking a doorway), Sets (4 matching mugs), Best-of-type (give away your old table once you acquire a nicer one), Build-toward-goal (enough figurines to make a chess set), or Collection (gather as desired, but no more than will fill a cabinet / bin). Dwarves may be influenced by their own circumstances, e.g. those with more friends may want more chairs, and might move out some other furniture to make room for them, and/or petition for larger quarters. Dwarves should also be sensitive to overseer input--install a weapon rack in their room, and they'll want to acquire something appropriate to put in it. But all of these desires should be subject to the dwarf's own economic / social standing, and other difficulties in acquiring said objects.
As I've said, full-blown otaku-ism should be a rare case, and even then there could be some variation, based on whether there is or isn't an intervention. (Maybe she has no friends/relatives, maybe she does but they don't have the collective emotional fortitude to set her straight, maybe the mayor has much more important problems to deal with).


A dwarf who likes obsidian could easily settle for a lower quality bed if it meant he could afford an obsidian cabinet.
Getting a dwarf to "settle" for less than the best available will take some tinkering, but I too see it as a desired goal. Barring an actual economy that would allow Urist to restrain his spending on one thing in order to splurge on another, personality traits might come into play: A dwarf with high Self_Control and low Immoderation might very well eschew flashy furnishings--except when it comes to a preferred item, made of a preferred material.

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Having dwarves furnish their own rooms is something I've always wanted to see as well. It would be nice if you could choose to designate generic places for furniture, and the residents of the room could choose what kind of furniture item they put there.
You might not even need to designate it, it could be automated. Beds are in the furthest spot from the door, tables are next to chairs, all furniture should have a clear walkable path of open floor (you don't need to step over a coffer to get to the armor stand), purely ornamental objects like statues are right next to--but not in--the traffic flow, etc.
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