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[neblime]

so I don't know if anyone remembers these threads
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133733.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139844.0
basically the idea was to have a cutthroat power struggle forum game going alongside a succession fort, but as you can see they plainly sputtered and died, sadly  .
I have been wondering why and my conclusions are thus:
1. It is way too complicated to keep track of every dwarf's possesions and specific house designs etc they want, so i'm never trying that again.
2. It didn't work with few people/ not many people stayed interested so it ended up being just a succesion fort with like 2 people watching.
3. The game we had in place was perhaps a bit too friendly and didn't promote people vying for power over each other and they more just ended up cooperating.

So in the same spirit, but perhaps a bit meaner, and certainly I hope improved, I have drafted a new set of rules, and resolved that we need 1 overseer/GM rather than trying to pass it around as well.
The rules are as follows:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O57rVnJVST6OliDXYdMIXCSQsNZcIFRAkSYc-gZBDoI/pub

I plan to, sometime soon, start a new game of this with me as overseer, first I want to gauge interest and also let people have a look at the rules first
please let me know what you think of the concept and also the specifics, I want to know if theres parts of it that just don't sound fun (or the whole thing if you like)
and also look for any possible exploits to just break the game because i'd rather eliminate those before I start.

Spoiler: extra info (click to show/hide)

what the rules are trying to encourage is for most dwarves who arent in the executive government to look with envious eyes and try and and work towards overthrowing them/ taking power for themselves, let me know if you think it needs to be modified to allow this
Starting laws will have to include laws against; murder/assualt, false imprisonment, treason and probably destruction of property (for residences specifically) both to prevent wasting time on the obvious and total chaos at the start,
Also laws are not supposed to be a hard barrier to stop you from doing something, if you can do it in the privacy of your own residence or without getting caught.
As far as embark is concerned I would probably go for something fairly easy so that we don't struggle too much

[blueturtle1134]

Interesting idea. I'll join.

[neblime]

alright cool any opinion or suggested change to the rules?

[blueturtle1134]

When we take an action or cause an event that kills or elects a dwarf, are you going to kill/make mayor him in game, and how?

[neblime]

as for electing positions, if its a position that exists in the game then yes I will assign it to that dwarf (this is part of the reason the baron+ titles are unloseable), if it doesn't exist in the game then i'll just use profession name (or if you hold a real position and a council position you'll be named something like Council member mayor), I intend to ignore the mayor elections that happen automatically and just replace them with whoever is supposed to be mayor.  I might add a little note to make this clearer

As it says in the rules for assassination you have to state a specific means then if you roll success I will act  it out in game, as you probably know you can't order dwarves to attack each other so it has to be something a little contrived like dropping a bridge on them

[blueturtle1134]

as for electing positions, if its a position that exists in the game then yes I will assign it to that dwarf (this is part of the reason the baron+ titles are unloseable), if it doesn't exist in the game then i'll just use profession name (or if you hold a real position and a council position you'll be named something like Council member mayor), I intend to ignore the mayor elections that happen automatically and just replace them with whoever is supposed to be mayor.  I might add a little note to make this clearer

As it says in the rules for assassination you have to state a specific means then if you roll success I will act  it out in game, as you probably know you can't order dwarves to attack each other so it has to be something a little contrived like dropping a bridge on them

More questions.

How will we simulate locking in bedrooms? As I understand it it's a physical place in the fortress. Will you actually burrow the dwarf into the room, or will no in-game action happen and the dwarf is just shielded against meta attacks?

When someone requests a dwarf, what do you do? Are we allowed to pick skills and traits? Will you rename the dwarf? Change their attributes or preferences? I'd suggest some way to differentiate PC dwarves from non-PC dwarves, such as not giving any NPCs a nickname. What happens if you run out of dwarves?

Can we have lots of megabeasts so we have opportunities for glory and fun? How about a nearby Dark Fortress?

What about ingame events that affect the metagame? If a dwarf dies of natural causes, like magma or bears? Does that automatically DQ the corresponding player? How about maiming and stuff? Will that affect the meta, make it impossible for you to take actions or do work or whatever?

Will Player attacks be posted here as well? If so, then doesn't it give us meta knowledge, we all know who posted an attack? Do we just pretend we don't know once we get IC as dwarves?

If we kill the baron can we have a new one? Vanilla DF does not allow for this, you'll have to hack/mod it. Please do this, I wanna see some flat nobility.

Also, a good, descriptive title:

GAME OF DWARVES


Moonstone is coming.



Edit: Just read the previous threads. Your rules are indeed much more concise - I bet it's the best it can get.

[neblime]

Yes I will actually burrow the dwarf in the room, so thirst will decide how long you can hold out (and thats also why fortified residence will be more valuable), if i have trouble in game for whatever reason though, yes they will be shielded from meta attacks.  Also remember availability of residences both meta and in game will depend on how well the fort can keep up with demand for them

You can pick whatever profession you want but the skills you already have will depend on what skills available NPC dwarves have, if I run out of dwarves people will just have to wait for more migrants.  I didn't plan on giving NPCs nicknames in any case.

sure we can embark near potential invaders, I just meant i don't want to embark on an evil glacier with thralling clouds and an aquifer because that will be more about me trying to overcome that than the game.

Ingame events out of your control are where the fun comes in   you can start again as many times as you like but if you die of a random event, yes you are dead you lose all influence/status.  This is why hiding in your residence and/or having guards might also be valuable.

You raise a good point about player attacks, I had the idea of having people pretend not to know IC but maybe it would be better if you had to PM that kind of thing... I'll think about it

Don't titles like that pass to the next in line? (which in my experience is usually not at your site)  In any case I could mod it, but if you're saying you don't respect the baron appointed by the mountainhomes and you want to be your own baron that's a new government position you have to appoint (and remove the old one) the in game baron+ titles represent titles given by the king's authority back home.  Although if someone does manage to become king I guess they could mess around with all that... I will look into making it manually changeable but unless you overthrow the government or petition to have the position removed unloseable titles still stand

I was thinking like game of *dolomite thrones* or something but game of dwarves sounds good
And yeah the previous versions had their problems thats why im asking before starting this time, on that note i intend to post a sort of quick-reference shortened version in the actual fort thread (with links to the doc still of course)

[blueturtle1134]

There. Is. More.

Am I allowed to install a pump and well in my residence and thus live there forever? Probably not, tongue-in-cheek question, but at least there has to be some limitation on residences.

Proposal for rule regarding attack information - the attacker must send you a PM describing the attack. This PM will be copied in its entirety into the forums, only the name will be obscured. Attacks will be revealed after that player dies - last minute confession and such.

Pretending not to know is hard because if players know they might just say this dwarf "happens" to suspect that dwarf and then we have metaknowledge.

How about births? And families? Do you get more influence if your parents were famous? Can we pick whichever dwarf we want?

Regarding barons - I would want a new baron to be randomly appointed (by king/Toady) after the current baron is flattened. So you have to flatten a few in order to get the title to pass to you, and if you flatten a bad one you could end up with an even worse one. As I understand the wiki, if you do this in Vanilla DF the position never gets reassigned to your fort until the king arrives. A baron doesn't rule over a segment of land, it's one baron max per fort and the title is just an evaluation on the size of the fort. You don't lose your baron if some other fort steals it. (Disclaimer: I have no experience in flattening barons)

[neblime]

Keep em coming, the more questions the better!

as it says in the rules a fortified residence has a source of food and water, that's the point, i hadn't planned a well specifically though i more had in mind a small farm plot but whatever works.  The only limitation on staying in your (fortified) residence for a long time is it costs you influence and you can't do anything from there.

Yeah I agree but I don't think all information should be copied because it might be obvious with number of guards or skill etc, I might just say something like "someone has attempted to assasinate urist!  result = 6 urist is dead." and then follow with an IC post describing how they got killed.

hmm maybe you have to get permission to pick the child of a PC but anything other than that might be a needless complication I remember in the old system we had complicated rules for adoption and such but they proved irrelevant.  perhaps if you die and have children you can choose to live on as them with a small portion of influence but i'm hesitant to do more than that.

In vanilla DF since 2014 the relevant positions have hereditary succession you just might not see them again because as I said they are rarely at your site (but they can migrate). no the baron doesn't actually rule over a section of land but that is what it is supposed to represent, the fort is just one place, when you get a baron the area around and including your fort is designated a barony by the mountainhome (not actually implemented yet), and a count would rule over the county containing possibly multiple baronies (again not implemented) and so on, in any case i don't see why they should be randomly appointed that should rest on the council's authority if they die without an heir.  This is the kind of thing that you should overthrow the government to change

[neblime]

made a couple changes and added an option for the executive government to pardon criminals

[blueturtle1134]

made a couple changes and added an option for the executive government to pardon criminals

Cool! What are these changes?

[neblime]

just minor things to make it clear what the answers to some of your questions are, also set a minimum influence of -40 because if you sit in your fortified residence forever it doesn't really make sense that you could be so reviled that no one could ever forgive you (like -100s of influence).  Also put in there that assasination and covert capture should be done by DM

[neblime]

can't really think of any other minor tweaks/see any gaps
what i'm missing though is some kind of power for broker.  all the other default noble positions have some kind of quirk but i have no idea what to give broker.  any ideas?

[blueturtle1134]

can't really think of any other minor tweaks/see any gaps
what i'm missing though is some kind of power for broker.  all the other default noble positions have some kind of quirk but i have no idea what to give broker.  any ideas?

Broker controls trade. Maybe he can decide to trade, not to trade, or to steal trade goods for himself. The first lets the fortress import items, the second means no trade that season, the third is a influence gain for broker and slight detriment to all else.

Also can draw trade agreements or aggravate the elves.

[neblime]

Doesn't make sense that he himself can make the choice not to trade.. embezzling goods sounds good though.. maybe roll with a chance to get caught? hmm i'll have to think about it don't want it to be too complex im happy with things like: hammerer, gets -1 drm to assasinate, bookkeeper can see assasinations coming, they're suitably simple and small benefits for these positions
maybe i should just settle for an influence gain every time you trade?