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[Tea]

Modes are not a part of my role.
Also, my theme is so specific (it's 8 words long) that I feel like it's kinda bad for me to claim it at this point.

-

TDS- Why did you only bring up your concerns with Pozzai being 3P when you initially saw him in the top tier of doll's tier list and not your concerns with Persus, who appears to be more of an actual scumread of yours?

-

dealing with that kind of person is exhausting.

I guess it's lucky I'm dying tonight then, eh?
So I've looked over some of the more questionable ones and I guess these are my reads in order of most to least town:
doll
Shakerag (via Lenglon)
Lenglon
Pozzai
Persus13
4maskwolf
Tea
hector13
TolyK
Jack A T
Tiruin
origamascienceguy
TheBiggerFish
TheDarkStar
flabort
FallacyOfUrist
Besides placing themselves at the top and me in some netherworld abyss, does anyone strongly disagree with this?
In particular, does anyone still have a problem with Tea, or any of the other players in the Black&Bold section?

I don't entirely follow the certainty behind the crux of the claim WIFOM part of your flabort case, but if I think of the games in terms of there being 6-7 non-town, him being town would be surprising. I mostly don't like him on a gut level but his recent reads are super...narrate-y/lacking depth? I'd be fine lynching him or FoU at this point.

No strong disagreements - I would put Hector (as previously explained, I don't like his line of thought around Pozzai's play around TBF here; and though this is somewhat TBF's fault, Hector's focus seems suuper narrow lately which is resulting in Hector flying under the radar in my mind?) just below OSG personally, and would move up Dark Star at least a tier. TolyK/Jack are more in the netherworld abyss bubble for me than you actually are lmao.

I don't like Tiruin's pep-talk about "buddying" in this post - the friendliness from her feels in-thread context-deaf, also don't like her giving the same read on me/Pozzai. But I think lack of setup awareness is maybe more indicative of someone who isn't group scum - so I guess that leaves her in more or less the same standing as for you.

[TheDarkStar]

TDS- Why did you only bring up your concerns with Pozzai being 3P when you initially saw him in the top tier of doll's tier list and not your concerns with Persus, who appears to be more of an actual scumread of yours?

Honestly? I read over doll's list quickly enough that I missed Persus entirely.

I don't like Tiruin's pep-talk about "buddying" in this post - the friendliness from her feels in-thread context-deaf, also don't like her giving the same read on me/Pozzai. But I think lack of setup awareness is maybe more indicative of someone who isn't group scum - so I guess that leaves her in more or less the same standing as for you.

I know this isn't directed to me, but that seems like an indication of Tiruin and/or doll being a third party. Third-parties tend to not want as much attention because if they die/otherwise lose control of the game they instantly lose, but they also don't have that same anti-town mentality as actual scum. doll is a special case, though, because although he's been playing oddly his claimed role doesn't match up with him being mafia or even a normal third party.

[Shakerag]

So I'm going back several days to get a better feel for where the game is at.  I'm just going to be responding to things as I see them.

Pozzai, please be aware that 80% of TBF's posts and 100% of mine (at least until the  16th-ish) are made via phone. LurkerTracker is our primary ISO tool on Bay12 and it doesn't function well via phone. Also, it is obnoxious to respond to "You havent posted X" with "Yes I have, sometime, somewhere, go re-read the entire game to try to find it!" And doing so will rightfully draw fire for evasion.

 While that may be true, the opposite is equally evasive and non-committal. Why not just either a) "I'm on phone, care to link me" or b) use the ~12hours to either find it or ask about it?

 The way they demand me to post it, as opposed to asking for it, and the fact they showed 0 interest in actually finding the stuff outside me prompting them about it should ring huge warning bells to anyone >_>

As a lazy ass myself, I could rightly see myself (as any alignment) telling someone else to go look it up themselves.  Evasive is not answering a question.  Lazy is not acquiescing to a request to find a specific post. 

Asking other players to find what you mean when they don't interpret it the same way is pretentious and rude.

This, on the other hand, is a valid point.

They also asked me to go read up on other games, but have had no interest in reading up on mine or Tea's and used it to throw shade in my direction.

I thought this comment was of note.

FallacyOfUrist
Useless, active lurking, now inactive scum
Should spend less time writing bad short fiction and more in this game, because he's losing it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States


Tiruin:

[In all seriousness, I'm targeting you tonight. Nothing bad, just hugs. And protection. And that's really your role name right? If anything negative happens, it wasn't me {but as my suspicions state, someone {ADDING_ON} to anything I do; there is nothing malevolent in any of my actions :V I am like a stone wall, who can only be defeated if you know my name. Or poison.]

So are you claiming that you're unkillable if we don't know your role name?  Are you also claiming that your role specifically mentions "poison" or something similar?

D-do I get to hold up your pictures? c:

Nope.  But you might get to hold up some coupons or a recipe or something.  No pictures on my fridge, sorry.

You...can't inspect as an SK unless inspections are role specific. People inspect your alignment :V
So you turn up as third-party.
Somebody be BAIT today :V And he may be SHAEKRAG! V:

You do know that SK is listed as an "alignment" in the first post, right? 


TheBiggerFish:

Pozzai:I wouldn't say it's that you are interacting with someone you know, it's that you appeared to be only interacting with the person you know.  That said, you've stopped doing it, so Unvote.

Waiiit.  So first you're all like "Pozzi is scummy because they're only interacting with one person" and then they start interacting with someone else and you're like "oh ok cool not scummy now".  You think that discounts the "scummy" behaviour you saw before?


Lenglon:

Shakerag - I wasnt sure what the big deal about his reads were, but thered been a big fight over getting them so I wanted to see what the fight was about and if Pozzai could post and explain them.

This makes a whole lot more sense when sober.


Tea:

I feel like I've worn on my fucking sleeve that I have actively not enjoyed playing this game from the onset, but that I am still trying my best to get and give reads. Why I was grumpy in the first place - Jack asking me to react to something inorganic/meaningless - has lended itself to me having been implictly expected to spend hours each day since delving further into something I straight up said I did not want my experience in this game to be defined by. Your expectation that I would wake up and enjoy the game more is, uh, really misguided, though I appreciate the nuance that went into you trying to reaction test around it, I guess? Maybe? I don't feel at arms length; I feel like I'm here and drowning and like there's nowhere near enough hours in the day for me to respond to ~~questions~~ and actually, like, deeply read.

I can recommend alcohol to help with some of that.  Seriously though, there's 16 players in this game.  Trying to get a deep read on everyone would take forever.  Just focus on a handful of players (especially D1) that catch your attention. 



Ok, cutting off there for now.  Will pick up and continue later.

[hector13]

Wow, that was sudden and angry.

doll: Do you secretly have a multivoting power or something because that was a lot of votes, geez.

Are you just going to ignore my questions for the rest of the game, in favour of pointless comments?

Notice me senpai.

I thought I had answered your questions.

How typically useless of you, thanks.

Are you going to do anything useful?

I mean you got on Pozzai's back regarding not posting reads, why shouldn't we get on your back for missing questions and then going "duhr, ah fot ah ded ansehr de kwestyunz" without pointing to where you answered the question, or, you know, reiterating the answer? Do you think that's the best way to help town? Do you think that's the way to play the game as any alignment, quite frankly?

You know how you feel about playing with roo? That's how people feel about playing with you.

Tolyk

Thanks for reminding me I needed to clarify that part of my argument.

Hector argued in his last wall that it seemed deflective of Pozzai to ask people for reads on people scumreading after a few people had discussed being suspicious of Pozzai. But from what I remember he only cited examples of Pozzai asking about TBF - which both seemed to ignore Pozzai's TBF trajectory throughout the game and seemed to be talking about that questioning behavior as more pervasive than it really was.

I quickly read through the interaction between Pozzai, Lenglon, and TBF and thought I read Pozzai deflecting TBF onto Lenglon at one point, but it was Lenglon onto TBF again. The deflecting in itself isn't something I like to see, but yeah, I was getting tired at that point and forgot to go back and edit the paragraph about how much deflecting was happening.

TBF gets under my skin. I played a year long series of games with him, during which I discovered I really don't like playing with him because he just doesn't fucking learn

[Tea]

Your response to me comes off as a bit of a conciliatory strawman - because, too tired to edit it or not, I felt like in that post the characterization of Pozzai's behavior around TBF was context-deaf to the fact that Pozzai /had/ (at least imo) given clear reasoning for how he was reading TBF both before and after that set of interactions. In my mind, you pounced and painted this whole exaggerated picture around this moment to ask a question that IMO had been answered multiple times on multiple days.

PPE: not read flabsy's post yet.

Did you ever?

Like, you asked a question to determine doll's mindset for differentiating {flabort, 4mask} and have since primarily responded to direct questions and otherwise only pressed TBF. By my count there's a few hours to deadline, 3-4 more votes need for a DL extension, and I'm just...not at all clear on what you think the best direction from here is, which is why I feel you're flying under the radar.

[hector13]

Monday is part of my weekend, given I work Tuesday-Saturday. Lack of decent sleep during that time, plus a desire to spend time with family and friends, does rather limit my time in mafia to obvious things. Like Teebs.

I did say during the last WoT I'd get to things as they came up during my read through, I did even say in, I think, the very first sentence of that WoT that I didn't know if things had been addressed, so I addressed them myself, regardless of if I found it to have been addressed later into my reading. If there's one thing you can guarantee me to be of any alignment, it's lazy.

Anyhow, seeing as Pozzai was complaining of this earlier, and you're complaining of it now, I apparently can't trust people to put pressure where it's needed. If you think I'm flying under the radar, why have you waited until a few hours to deadline to pull me up?

[TheBiggerFish]

@hector: I'm going "I believe I answered your question" because I have repeatedly answered the question "why did your read change".  If you're asking something else, then remind me.

[Tea]

Headed to work now.

vote: flabort
vote: extend ? I don't even want one personally but there's a couple of people that have voted for one that I would like to see get caught up in real time so w/e.

p-edit: ...because it's your very recent behavior that makes me feel that way? o_O?

Also TBF Shakerag and Hector have both recently asked you something more nuanced than that. Learn to read

[Tiruin]

Lenglon:

TolyK - please st least FoS your hypothedical vote target. I get it, you plan on not voting for literally all day, but I still want your hypothedical vote.

Tiruin has triggered my scumdar, and I wanted to see her behavior after that point. If you want a tl;dr: I feel she's responsible for the Survival mode scum helper thing, for <reasons>. She doesn't seem to have posted much, so unfortunately it's been hard for me to confirm my suspicions... There's one post which I've saved, but that's not much.

You haven't said any word to me whatsoever in recent memory. -_- You can't reliably go 'triggered my scumdar' [/and didn't do anything about it] if I've to be your first mention--unless it's the primacy effect going on here.

PFP because it is 5am and I woke up and am still in shock because of my lucid dreaming [love you dreams, not loving the recurring themes of spiders]

[4maskwolf]

Lenglon: Personally I'd remove TDS from that list because, upon reading his recent posts, he doesn't really strike me as scum.  I don't have as much to say about him as flabort because it's more of a gut feeling and I'm writing this haven just woken up and read the posts, but I'll try.  Just looking through his reads he seems to have done his research and have more substance than a lot of players and while I disagree with some of them he seems secure in his beliefs, which I read as townie.

TolyK: I know nothing of the game modes beyond what's been said in the thread, and it'd be weird if I did because my role is not related to games or modes in any way.  Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.

TBF: Do you have any cases to push?  Because mostly I've seen you being on the defensive this game.

doll: Actually the reason I'm being aggressive during the times I'm active on D1 today is a) because I do need to get better at D1 anyway and b) I don't feel like spending all of D1 bickering with you, that can wait until later in the game if we happen to be on different teams.  It's pretty NAI.

[TolyK]

Tiruin: I noted it to Jack in the chat, and I wanted to wait to get non-circumstantial evidence to hemm you in. Not much of that has come up. (Though you do keep editing your posts... )

Again, these are really short posts, and I hope the day gets extended so I can present a case by "today". Otherwise it'll have to wait until D2.

Lenglon:

Tolyk - You can act more than once per phase?
Was your chat invite power a 1-shot?
Why are you using an ability to prove yourself to a single vote others disagree with?
Considering your behavior, is it beneficial for people to vote you?

Technically, yes.
No.
Because it doesn't really cost me anything, and it dispells more than 1 doubt. I'd rather FoU go look for actual scum than a nonexistent cult leader. (Well, maybe they exist, but I don't know of any ).
No, it isn't, because it's a waste of votes and time. You can feel free to, but I don't see much of a case on me other than "seems like cult leader", which I hope to dispell quickly.

Tolyk
Thanks for reminding me I needed to clarify that part of my argument.

... what is this referring to? Sorry, I'm a bit out of touch with reality atm.


PPE:
4mask

TolyK: I know nothing of the game modes beyond what's been said in the thread, and it'd be weird if I did because my role is not related to games or modes in any way.  Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.

Emphasis mine. Google translate says:
"He who fights with monsters may see that he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you"

Thanks for the answer, but why the hidden text?

[4maskwolf]

4mask

TolyK: I know nothing of the game modes beyond what's been said in the thread, and it'd be weird if I did because my role is not related to games or modes in any way.  Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.

Emphasis mine. Google translate says:
"He who fights with monsters may see that he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you"

Thanks for the answer, but why the hidden text?

I'm hinting at my role for if we do a massclaim later.  Pretty standard stuff.  It's not related to the answer to your question, really, I just did it because I mentioned my role so I figured I might as well leave that there as well.

[Persus13]

TolyK:

Persus13:
Well, I did just wake up.
Jokes aside, this was the thing that struck me immediately - nobody was talking about survival mode. It seems strange to me that there is no reference of any "mode" in someone else's role. Also, my thoughts went to it possibly being a town move: you get some bonus, with the drawback that scum get a free action (basically). Maybe it was indeed an overreaction, as there has been no more information on it, but we didn't even get any attempts to get information on it!

I would agree that I usually am pretty reasoned, mostly because I play with regards to mechanics more than reading people (of course, I do both, but more biased towards mechanics than other people...). What I should've done at the end of that was ask this:

Everyone: Do you have any reference to different "Game modes"?

The reason I'm asking: Given my (albeit limited) information, it seems that role ideas are reciprocated between several players, i.e. similar role mechanics are at work. This is fairly standard in Wuba BYOR's, iirc, so it was odd that nobody has any info about the modes. There's also the possibility that they just want to keep it hidden, for now, but I didn't really consider that at the time, either...

I understand your thought process of your post, its just the post itself came across as very forced and fake with your use of the f-word and your tone. At the time you posted it, it seemed like you were the one responsible, had expected more of a reaction to it, and so you posted a response of you freaking out to it to get responses. Hence why I voted you over it and questioned you about it. Thinking back on previous play, you're usually one of those guys who starts thinking about roles and how to break the setup, and you answered my question well, so I'll give you an Unvote, but that post still rubs me the wrong way.

Also, I didn't really look at the name, I just assumed that had to do with someone's role flavor.  Again, my guess is that its some sort of mafia ability, or the person otherwise doesn't want to disclose it.

Lenglon: What's your thought process behind asking TDS to expand on specific reads? Why those people, and are you trying to get more content out of him or just find them weird?

Tea:

Your response to me comes off as a bit of a conciliatory strawman - because, too tired to edit it or not, I felt like in that post the characterization of Pozzai's behavior around TBF was context-deaf to the fact that Pozzai /had/ (at least imo) given clear reasoning for how he was reading TBF both before and after that set of interactions. In my mind, you pounced and painted this whole exaggerated picture around this moment to ask a question that IMO had been answered multiple times on multiple days.

Who is this addressed to?

Flabort's got a lot of attention, but FallacyofUrist is probably the most scummy to me at them moment. He and Flabort both have the same problem of bizarre reads and both are somewhat lacking in terms of actual content or involvement in the game, but Fallacy comes off more malicious from that than Flabort does. Flabort's reads have some headscratchers and a few things I don't like, for instance his suspicions of OSG and 4maskwolf based on their activity, but Fallacy's sole scum read is TolyK, and his attack on TolyK for being a cult leader is strangely specific and more bizarre than anything flabort's posted. I'm okay with the flabort lynch, because of points I've expressed previously and doll et al. have expressed better, and the day is starting to drag, so I'm still not planning on voting to extend though.

[hector13]

@Tolyk

Just confusing myself between you and Tea, apparently.

[Shakerag]

TolyK:

So... Who do you think we should lynch, if scum isn't obvious D1?

Ehh.  My gut feeling so far is maybe one of Jack A T, FoU, or TBF.  I'll have to revisit this after I get done catching up.
EDIT:  After reading everything, I'm inclined to agree with doll on a flabort lynch.  TheDarkStar is giving off gut scum vibes due to the third-parties focus.  TheBiggerFish ... can't say if scum, but popular opinion seems to be "no big loss if gone".  Jack A T was pinging just due to hanging an early vote on Tea or Pozzi (who seemed like easy targets for scum to push a mislynch on).  FoU I think was in the same boat as Jack A T, and there was something else that came up during my read that added weight to a scum lean on FoU, but I can't remember what it was now.

Lenglon:
Sure. For one, I'm fairly afraid of vote manipulation, as I have reason to believe there will be. Given this fact, and also that I didn't have a concrete read on you at the time, I didn't feel it wise to pressure-vote you. If you had become more suspicious, I'd have voted you, but currently my suspicions are elsewhere (and I'm not revealing them at this time to the public, because I'm curious to see how they work when not under pressure).

Interesting.  So do your role's abilities indicate to you that there is reason to think there is vote manipulation or is this more of a gut feeling?

Everyone: Do you have any reference to different "Game modes"?

Nope.  Neither does Lenglon as far as I can tell.


doll:

Shakerag

This game is ... a little different, but more on the detrimental to me side.  I'm not going to say much right now, but more toward the end of the day I think I'll give out a bit more info.

Are we approaching that point yet, or have you changed your mind?
Does Lenglon's fusion have much bearing on how you intend to play out the rest of the day?

I think we're close enough.  It is odd that no one really called out me voting for myself.  But, basically, it is advantageous to me to end the day with at least one vote on me.  I won't say more on that until D2 at least.
Lenglon's fusion was ... well, from a webadict mechanic standpoint pretty interesting.  Kudos to him.  I don't think it'll change how I intend to play out the rest of the day, no. 

The strength of my read on 4mask is based on meta, and the fact that he hasn't followed the behavior chronic to D1 scum!4maskwolf which I used to find him in the BM.
For this reason, players not sharing that meta-context should have a weaker townread of 4maskwolf than I do.

So what is scum!4mask's D1 behaviour?  Nevermind; I see you mentioned this.


Tiruin:

Hum! It seems Lenglon is now with Shakerag O_o

And they both seem aware of it.

I know, right?  I wake up and it's like, bam, Lenglon merged with you.  And she didn't even buy me a drink first!

But the fusion thing seems like we're one player with two separate votes.  And we share actions/abilities.

I missed this while browsing on Lenglon/Shakerag but...Am I right in presuming you're just repeating the orange part BECAUSE of your first post? "Leave it to webadict to screw me..." [because I sent in a OP role?]
Because it's weird to see you reaffirming something that's private.

Did you plan to fuse with Lenglon? If so; why?
If not; do you like her what just happened? As in: Do you have any idea what has happened?

Well, webadict is always going to screw me in some way.  It's just expected at this point.  Not sure what was private..?
I didn't plan on the fusion, no.
I think it may be advantageous to us both, so I suppose that's good.  Otherwise I think it's pretty much like how I laid it out.

I will also accept it/its and that asshole/that asshole's.

Eeeeey, you're the oldest person here and I'll never say the last bit even if you've learned some grouchy behaviors :p You're overall a nice guy.

Argh.  You're too nice.  Will you just let me be a curmudgeon?  T_T

In meatspace; please live and take care of yourself :O You're a rather nice person when a person gets to know you. :p

Surviving the weekend was more in reference to how sore I feel after weeding my garden.  God, I'm getting old =P

You have Lenglon, don't you? :V

She's a bit otherwise occupied for a while too.  Also, got to keep up to speed on what's going on.  I don't want to have to read 6 days worth of posts all at once  D:


TheBiggerFish:

I'm guessing scum did it.

Not necessarily.  It could be, knowing webadict, a town player with an ability that says something like "you don't know what this'll do (and you likely shouldn't do it)" and they did it anyway because YOLO.  Hell, I'd do it.  But, for the record, I didn't have anything to do with "survival mode".


Flabort:

Note: the mode change is NOT from me or shakerag. I have his entire role PM and he has most of mine, (doesnt have my alignment). Neither of us have anything to change the mode like that.  We are both town, but he cannot verify that I am even though I can verify he is. we have shared actions and votes, and he can post and/or act for me while im away.

Oh, I really would have loved to post as soon as this happened.

And what would you have posted?

What about Bastard?

Also acceptable.


hector13:

G'on then, though. Tell us what about the interaction between Pozzai and Tir did to change your mind, 'cause it looks like it was just because Pozzai was interacting with someone else (Tir) and that's why a I asked the question you've still not answered.

Was Pozzai seeking out the interaction, or reacting to someone else interacting with the ?

Ahh, bugger.  You beat me to it.


TheDarkStar:

I know this isn't directed to me, but that seems like an indication of Tiruin and/or doll being a third party. Third-parties tend to not want as much attention because if they die/otherwise lose control of the game they instantly lose, but they also don't have that same anti-town mentality as actual scum. doll is a special case, though, because although he's been playing oddly his claimed role doesn't match up with him being mafia or even a normal third party.

Why are you seemingly more interested in finding third-parties rather than scum?
Bonus hidden text!  Just because.