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[webadict]

When actioning lenglon or shakerag or lenglon-shakerag, how should we annotate the action in our PM to you?

Currently, they are the same player. They do, however, still have separate votes.

You may target one of the other. Or come up with a creative portmanteau of their names. Personally, I'm fond of Lakelon.

[Lenglon]

!can post! gtg, superbusy bebacklater.

[TheBiggerFish]

@doll: Oh, I thought it was something about the kills.  Dunno why that was.

[Tea]

I described it as milking because you did multiple things before I ever posted to frame my relationship to the thread around the wagon on me and nothing else - voting me, asking for an immediate reaction to the wagon, and then talking to Lenglon about his vote on me. This has more or less continued since (e.g. the question to Persus and your responses to me). It's also been my previous experience here that people will for some reason sort of shrug at the actual posts I make (maybe due to formatting?) and hyper-focus on anything that has to do with votes.

Tea: Alright, I think I understand your position here.  You are uncomfortable not so much with the vote as with my treatment of this as a noteworthy event, one that generates reactions worth looking at.

Yes, thank you.

Treatment, I will say, that was more successful here at generating worthwhile interactions than in any of my prior games.

...If that's the case then I feel bad for you? :@

What's interesting here is your highlighting of the question to Persus as part of the milking.  Let's look back at it for a moment.  It is quite clear from the context that Persus was reacting to the wagon (as he confirmed).  Do you believe his reaction was not worth examining?
Also, a quick question: had the RVS wagon been on TolyK instead of you, would you be similarly uncomfortable?

I don't mind that you asked him about his reaction in and of itself, especially since your questions surrounding that went beyond the kinda eye-roll-inducing "hey bro u knowingly aligned with Tea?". As I said, that just about everything you asked about w/r/t me and about me continued to revolve around the ~the wagon~ was my specific issue.

I can't say I've encountered this exact situation previously so I'm unsure - I think I would be bugged by it intellectually but not have the same emotional reaction bc I'd feel like I could address it on my own terms?

Spoiler: Jack & Persus on the nature of my questions to Jack (click to show/hide)

Curious about using flabort's reaction is what I meant.

Ah.  The title was interesting, but there was little about Webadict's behaviour to look into either before or after the start of D1, and before, I had almost no context whatsoever for the role of themes.  The idea to reveal my theme and use it as RVS fodder?  That I came up with on the fly, with full awareness of my role PM.

You know, there's something remarkable about your line of questioning.  You've asked a lot of questions about the design of my first post.  Alright.  Most people question me to figure out my alignment from my posts.  Your questions, however, seem aimed somewhere very different.  You do a lot of cross-examination-style questioning, yes-no questions with a clear intended response.

Was your wall of questions written in the order that you posted it in?

Here, you expected a "yes," the answer that would indicate the least thought and care put into my first post.  You didn't get the answer you expected.  You got, essentially, "no."  You were skeptical.  Your response was to cast doubt on the extent to which I put thought and care into the order:

Considering Pozzai was already at the bottom of the playerlist I'm not sure why him ending up in that spot took that much more thought for you?

...Even though you posted before the game was rolled here, you weren't curious about flabort's reaction until after reading your role PM? Because I felt like that was really the meat of what you decided to include about your claim - using that pregame information as a jumping off point to create RVS information.

What causes you to doubt his word here? More importantly, why does this matter at all if Jack had some preconceived ideas about what to ask people pre-game?

Then there is this question:

...Even though you posted before the game was rolled here, you weren't curious about flabort's reaction until after reading your role PM? Because I felt like that was really the meat of what you decided to include about your claim - using that pregame information as a jumping off point to create RVS information.

Here, your skepticism is aimed at the idea that my decisions, particularly my theme reveal, were built on post-PM thinking, and the question is meant to help show that my decisions were built on unaligned thinking.

You seem remarkably uninterested in figuring out how my alignment is reflected in my behaviour.  Instead, you're working hard to disconnect the two, trying to explain my behaviour away as built on unaligned thought and minimizing the influence of my role PM.

So, Tea, consider this the point where my vote shifts from RVS stuff to being something serious.  What have you learned from your questions? 

I feel like the sentiment that ~it sounds like you're cross-examining more than asking open-ended questions~ is true in that I'm at times trying to be clear about what I think is most likely with an implicit "correct me if I'm wrong."

It's not true that I asked "Was your wall of questions written in the order that you posted it in?" with the expectation that the answer was yes. The apparent organization of the post appeared to be {doll, 4maskwolf} since their stuff was relevant to your claim, and then {the order of the playerlist}. For all I knew you left that skeleton the same and then, like, immediately thought "I'm gonna not ask Fish anything." If there was a particular thing I hoped to get out of that question, it was actually an explanation for the obvious tonal shift between {Tiruin and OSG's questions}, since that was the most interesting part of the whole wall for me, and wasn't something I really figured out how to ask about subtly. I'm vaguely familiar with them both and it was more understandable to me why you'd ask Tiruin something fluffy than OSG, so I was wondering if I could get in your head regarding that - and I wouldn't say I really got anything meaningful from what you eventually said on the matter. But I also kinda hoped that if you were town you'd just say something that seems too surprising/deep to fake?

When you responded to that question, I did find it interesting that you brought up where you placed Pozzai but not TBF/me since there was already in-thread content by/about us, and was like wait what is there more to that (esp since the rest of your answer was, uh, boring)?

At this point what my thought process for with the pregame question is a bit fuzzy? My general attitude about it is I guess:
- The way you claimed initially really sounded to me like (1) you were telling the truth (2) that your theme wasn't present in your role PM regardless of your alignment and (3) that you were specifically trying to use it as a reaction test, which made me, uh, CONFUSED by some of the directions of the skepticism i saw being expressed. Although I don't know if I have non-feels reasons for any of that. well for (2) I feel like there would have been more pause with how you went about it ++ your questions to webadict would've played out differently
- I felt like it would be town indicative if you had come up with it on the fly bc ... eh, for one thing if it doesn't have to do with your role it potentially comes off rolefishy for not that much forseeable benefit that I can see, and also because it's just p creative for scum
- but I also felt like it was more likely that you thought about it while waiting for the game to get rolled esp since you posted so many words so fast
- so it was kinda like a damn I wish that meant more than it actually seems to, I mean if you can convince me that you did think of it on the fly then cool but I'm not entirely sure how you would or what exactly to ask

uhhhhhh. yeah? I dunno. A lot of what I got out of my questions is that I feel like I was trying too hard to force a read on one person from one post and that I needed to focus on other things to actually anchor myself to the game.

I wooooooould like to know while I have your attention more about your opinion of Fallacy. You mentioned that his TolyK push is the main thing he's done - what's your assessment of that push?

In other news I find it vaguely weird how much people seem to be soft-defending me ITT lately but not really talking to me.

Remind me to say something re: hector's post after Pozzai posts.

[doll]

In other news I find it vaguely weird how much people seem to be soft-defending me ITT lately but not really talking to me.

Something I've wanted to say and this provides a good opportunity to:
It is (relatively) easy to find out that someone is town by talking to them and asking them questions.
It is hard to find out that someone is scum by talking to them. This is because:

It is easy to find out that someone is scum by watching them. Asking questions clouds your judgment a lot because they usually have a decent, alignment-neutral reason for answering you' nobody wants the lynch sitting on them. The indicator that someone is scum is that they don't ask questions because they already know who is town, or at least who is not scum.

I am happy with the play of certain individuals, Tea and Lenglon being particular examples, in and of itself. They are active and engaged and appear to show an interest in the alignments of other players.
If I ask them questions, I am very likely to get satisfactory answers; unless I actually want to know something, there is therefore not much to ask them. I would ask questions if I have a particular concern and nobody else has asked after such; unless I have a specific point to clarify all I can really ask is 'are you scum' and you'll say 'nah I'm town' and I'll go 'yeah okay I can believe that'.

If you look at my reads list, you'll see that realistically I should be asking questions to Tiruin, Shakerag and in particular Persus13, so I guess I'll do that in a bit.
But for now, you (Tea) haven't raised any specific points for me to comment on (as Lenglon or TolyK have) nor are you a player I'm really worried about the alignment of.

[doll]

In rereading I've remembered why I didn't like flabort: an idea of activity just for the sake of activity. After all, what was he hoping to gain in the daygame by discussing me? Nothing except smoke, which he identified as such. It's a weaker case than I've ever had but I have also been intending to kill flabort which might have weakened the effort I put into my analysis of him.
So, flabort hasn't asked any questions since his first post in RVS.
I mean, he's been inactive for a while, but he never asked any more questions in his 'followup' of those RVS questions.
Flabort
You have been helpful but not especially productive.
What players would you feel confident in calling town or very likely town?
Do any players stick out to you as scum?
Does your role suggest to you any ways of dealing with potential third parties? (the 'and why' is purely optional on this one)
Persus13
Okay actually I'm a lot happier with him as town than I thought, nothing to see here.
Also, de-sUe is archaic, not childish. You still see it in some formal situations. I haven't met any teenage girls who pronounce the old form except for chunni's at fashion festivals and they hardly count, but I have seen it from some government officials.
Shakerag

This game is ... a little different, but more on the detrimental to me side.  I'm not going to say much right now, but more toward the end of the day I think I'll give out a bit more info.

Are we approaching that point yet, or have you changed your mind?
Does Lenglon's fusion have much bearing on how you intend to play out the rest of the day?

[Tiruin]

Woo. Just 50+ replies to read through as I wake up again :p
Here're all mah posts! 1, 2, 3, 4.


Also I do hope everyone is having fun. To the newbies [Tea/Pozzai], while it may seem like people are being very thorough with Day1, it'll be due to many other things later that'll affect people and their ideas. To be transparent--I'm not against his 'buddying' up with you, and any kind of buddying because buddying by itself isn't anything wrong. But if people do act like these--don't take it personally, whatever anyone does, they're held accountable for what they do. Obviously, in Mafia.

Alright.  I'm starting to feel like I don't hate my life, so I must be getting somewhat drunk.

No self-hate please :< lives can be changed with action over time, and awareness!
Just steps at a time even if it seems like one big thing :3 Big things are actually small things seen connectedly.
Hum! It seems Lenglon is now with Shakerag O_o

And they both seem aware of it.
Also TBF, my vote is still on you because I'm still curious as to why you seem to be picking out specific people and then persecuting them, and being reactionary to others only in turn. However I'd unvote at the moment due to sporadic internet--will re-vote later on if I can over the weekend and get more posts in!
{Also TBF, you haven't replied to my queries in posts 3/4 above :p}

REEDS list! [Made from Papyrus! On Papyrus!]
Tea/Pozzai - both lean town to me because of how their content is parsed, even if some content is a bit askew :p
Shakerag - ...I still have to ask. When he said SK/Miller, I took that more like 'he's an SK, but he said miller, so he'll appear as Mafia, when he's an SK' >_> That's why I voted him in the first place. And then unvoted because :v
TBF - Leaning Ugh moreso because of how he posts. >_< It's unhelpful to not be aware of one's own 'how I post' affecting others' ideas of them but also that his posts are reactionary and sporadic. It's at times, needless, but if it's something like meatspace-Mafia, it's a reaction like being verbalized in text and posted. He's been like this as scum before--which is one reason why I'm voting him, otherwise he'd be neutral but ugh. Other reasons are in between my re-read, and me crumpling under horribad internets.
doll - This is either going to end up hilarious or otherwise, either way I'm hugging him because I choose to believe him saying his role name and stuff. Which helps me. That said, I see him as town-leaning explicitly because he's being expressively transparent, or obliquely transparent that it's moreso translucent if he's scum [and he's just doing Day1 for kicks and funstuff]. And reminds me of Vector because they're cool. And I miss them. :V
. . .

flabort - I've read a bit about you...but nothing stood out. In the 'active' sense, partly biased by me being all that you're back. But more activity please :I
TheDarkStar - I feel like you're more active in other places than here. But there IS a DCSS tournament going on and you're ruling the game :V That game. But please more here too.
Lenglon -...I guess your alignment is the same as Shakerag's now?
Tiruin - Hi! I'm Tiruin.
origamascienceguy - absent ;~;
TolyK
hector13
FallacyOfUrist
Persus13
Jack A T - reading pretty well. His initial marks and how he acted leave me to note him as leaning town given what he's doing and what he's planning and his kindness [not his kindness = town/scum lean, per se, but his kindness in expression telling me more than the value of his content into his alignment] Tawny!
4maskwolf

>_> I seriously have to re-read a lot. Because I'm either getting humor/nice reads on people and having fun, or these are all in the gray zone.
Also I'm town. Please boop me nicely. [No investigates please; I'll show up town. No I'm not a bloody Godfather. Yes I tell the truth always.] :v

Shakelon: When you say fused...what does that mean?

Lengrag
Do you have any insight into the alignment of the player you fuse with?

I do, he doesnt, Sk-miller claim verified as well

Err, "he doesn't"? Either I'm missing context clues in between doll addressing you or this is more 'I'm speaking out of context of knowing how the ability works and yeah'
._.

In other news I find it vaguely weird how much people seem to be soft-defending me ITT lately but not really talking to me.

Something I've wanted to say and this provides a good opportunity to:[...]

Speaking for myself too because coincidentally the above person makes a good explanation but I wanted to answer this too :I
> People can defend you because their reads are connected to you in turn; otherwise they've also a good eye on how you are [as in reading you town-ish or otherwise], alongside the note being that this is purely D1 and it's more a poke-fest of information in everyone's subjective way of doing their wincon and having fun.

Moreso, if this references me, I'm soft-defending [...soft = indirect, right? :v] you because you're getting dumb flak because 'another person is talking to you a lot and that is Pozzai', and this flak can really not be helpful. Overall. It's a player's personal behavior in the way that isn't necessarily even alignment-biased.

This is partly (mostly) why I'm poking only a certain set of people now.
Because other people can be nudged later on! :3 ...and that others are nudging them now in turn, that I find myself being okay with their current communique.
Wow communique is a word! But not in a way I envisioned it here. Ah well.

Lenglon:

Shakerag: Time to address the elephant in the room. You always submit a role that is disruptive to the game. Do you think your current one is going to be a major player or a minor player in how the game works out?

[...]

Well, typically my roles (off the top of my head) either tend to be disruptive to everyone or just detrimental to me.  Like in BYOR 10 (I think) I fucked with the voting system all game.  This game is ... a little different, but more on the detrimental to me side.  I'm not going to say much right now, but more toward the end of the day I think I'll give out a bit more info.

I missed this while browsing on Lenglon/Shakerag but...Am I right in presuming you're just repeating the orange part BECAUSE of your first post? "Leave it to webadict to screw me..." [because I sent in a OP role?]
Because it's weird to see you reaffirming something that's private.

Did you plan to fuse with Lenglon? If so; why?
If not; do you like her what just happened? As in: Do you have any idea what has happened?


PPE: Doll! x1

[Pozzai]

 I'm just on for 3mins, so I wont be able to return pokes directed at me till later.

 I kind of mulled over in the night, and during my pubcrawl, whether I felt like Tea was more town, or I wanted Tea to be town after our last interactions.

 I kind of came to the conclussion that I just feel and think like she's townier after the exchanges we had, though with a few caveats still.

 This also results in me thinking Jack is probably more of a townlean for me now, as Jack and myself both shared the same strong feeling Tea was scum, and both of us basically at the same time started doubting. I would like people to go through #438 to #449 and kind of 'fact check' me.

 Like, I don't think the posts Tea has during that time is screaming town, but I think it results in you flip-flopping a bit on Tea if you were in the situation Jack was prior to the exchanges, so it leads me to believe Jack actively was looking to determine her alignment, instead of just reading the posts?

Unvote, Vote TBF

 I don't feel superstrong about the TBF thing, a bunch of the things I have issues with is logic based, and Lenglon says it's not exactly TBF's forte. It also seems "too easy" in that everyone is basically "yeah we can kill off TBF" which is normally a huge warning sign that something is wrong, but if it's just a bunch of 3Ps instead of a mafia team, maybe irrelevant?

[doll]

Tiruin
I never stated my role name.
Also, don't protect me if you have a protect, because it's not going to work in any meaningful way, and I've got more to do while I'm dead than most players do anyway.
re: Lenglon commenting on Shakerag:
Lenglon confirmed that she knows Shakerag's alignment and powers, presumably having access to Shakerag's full role. Shakerag did not gain a similar set of information about Lenglon.
Shakerag's claim of sk-miller corresponds to the xybot (or xylbot or w/e it's called) rolepower which inspects as sk. The rolepower is theoretically alignment neutral, but Lenglon says that Shakes is town and I don't have a strong reason to doubt that at this junction.
Pozzai
Tea's play in #438-449 appears as really authentic to my eye, which is like the postmodernist version of town.
I'm slightly less enthused about Jack's play in that section, but it's more that he just feels disconnected and alienated from what went on and he didn't really 'get' the early game that tea was playing and that it's just a case of town players shooting past each other because they're each going a different way seems pretty plausible and likely to me.

I'm less happy about Jack than Tea (as town) in general though, but that's just because I'm fairly happy with tea as town or town-identifiable scum.

[Tiruin]

Tiruin
I never stated my role name.
Also, don't protect me if you have a protect, because it's not going to work in any meaningful way, and I've got more to do while I'm dead than most players do anyway.

:c
But I thought it was genki! [All my abilites that require a rolename--since this is literally the first time I've played with them \o/ -- only work when I use them :p]

Aww .-.;
Um, thanks for clarifying.

PFP
Well, I've a semi-obvious set of people to target tonight then <_>

Shakerag's claim of sk-miller corresponds to the xybot (or xylbot or w/e it's called) rolepower which inspects as sk. The rolepower is theoretically alignment neutral, but Lenglon says that Shakes is town and I don't have a strong reason to doubt that at this junction.

Thanks doll c: To re-edit my earlier reads--Shakerag lies alongside Pozzai/Tea due to his nature of how he states what he says too. In between the drunkposting anyway.

Also Lenglon didn't say Shake is town but she said 'I c-

I do, he doesnt, Sk-miller claim verified as well

To your note of

Lengrag
Do you have any insight into the alignment of the player you fuse with?

And thanks for the better rewording!

Lenglon confirmed that she knows Shakerag's alignment and powers, presumably having access to Shakerag's full role. Shakerag did not gain a similar set of information about Lenglon.

So I'm presuming this is Lenglon's ability action.
Lenglon: What did you do or why did you pick SHakey? [I'm still re-reading so just linking me to any post prior is okay too]

[...]
Pozzai
Tea's play in #438-449 appears as really authentic to my eye, which is like the postmodernist version of town.[...]

Just reading this reminds me of how I felt while reading Immanuel Kant's stuff.
So new, so defined, so impressionistic. :3
And yay, I spelled his name right after 5 years of not reading philosophy.

[Tiruin]

« Last Edit: Today at 03:54:45 am by Tiruin »

Bluh bluh grammar checking modify in <1 minute of posting, thanks slow internet -_-

[doll]

Kant might have been a genius who revolutionized the field of literature, but I'm still insulted that you've compared me to the person who introduced the concept of categorical imperatives and failed to grasp that you cannot derive an ought from an is.
Also, he predates postmodernism by >300 years.

[Tiruin]

PFP

Ahaaaa ._. I'm sorry! I didn't mean it that way--I meant in a positive perspective rather than what nitty bits may have stayed on Kant's sieve in how he did things. The comparison was positive in the way that meant 'I like this description' by noting an outside-inside context with terms.

And yep. Postmodernism! \o/ The first time I've seen it used in a Mafia context when describing perspective to another's post.

[doll]

Yes, I'm going to EBWOP meaningless fluff:
Authenticity was the core idea which Sartre (and Kierkegaard) discussed, and is usually commented on as being 'the postmodernist version of morality' or something like that, which is what I was supposed to be calling back to.
PPE:
I called webadict's rant about authenticity being a towntell sartre-esqu in an earlier game, I think the BM.

Anyway, my playstyle could be called 'the postmodern style of mafia' since it deconstructs traditional meaning (as in Leafsnail's positivist checklist of scum behaviors) and favors a style which, rather than pursuing moral or general truths (finding scum) seeks to reach the goals of the user alone i.e. the lynch of a player is a lynch in and of itself, and not a commentary on their likelyhood of being scum etc.
It has, in this way, a pragmatism reminiscent of Stirner and those that have come after in a similar vein.

[TolyK]

... So, things happened. One we get a public explanation of. Second is unknown what it even does.

Why the fuck are people not asking what Survival mode is?!

I just woke up and read a bit, but seriously?