Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Persus13]

Persus - could you expound on why you're mad at this game? you phrased it like the TBF/Pozzai interaction and low activity from experienced players were aggrivating the problem, but that the core issue was something else. What is that core issue?

I like mafia games to be intelligent, fun, and enjoyable. This game has not been that at all so far, and I'm pretty sure Tea and TolyK would agree with that to some extent. Plus I'm frustrated playing the game, because I think I have good reads on the people who have posted a lot like you, TBF, and Pozzai, but others like OSG have barely posted anything noteworthy. 4maskwolf, Fallacy, TolyK, and flabort were fairly active early on, and none of them are posting now, which means that I can't improve my reads on them, and Tiruin, Jack, and Shakerag are being themselves, and are always difficult to read. I always get worried that the scum has managed to successfully avoid the spotlight of the game, but the player size of this game increases that possibility here. Finally, I'm frustrated with some real life stuff, and this game doesn't help against that the way I'd like it too.

Oh, and ISO roughly translates to using LurkerTracker on someone.

Gotcha, thanks.

[Shakerag]

Persus13:

Well, at least I can rely on your posts to crack me up for a bit. I'd love to hear who you think is scum though.

Well, I'm a shit player so I got to have something to give. 

As far as scum goes, I don't know, man.  It's D1.  Most of us are experienced enough to not do something totally scummy (at least on D1).  Statistically speaking, we're going to lynch an oddball* townie on D1.  Good scum analysis isn't going to start until D2, when we've all had a chance to fire off some abilities.  If was absolutely forced to pick someone who was scum, I'd start looking at whoever is pushing for a Ponzi/Tea lynch, as they're the "newest" players here and most likely to violate one of our mafia mores unknowingly.  Having said that, even looking at the players pushing for that lynch you're more likely (in my opinion) to hit a less-experienced but well-intentioned town.  Good scum players should be undetectable on D1.  Even not-so-good scum players are unlikely to wave a big red flag with "I'm scum" embroidered on it on D1. 

So.  This has kind of turned into an essay/analysis. 

Anyway, looking back on my earlier scum playing days, I would try to look for something anyone did as "scummy" and push on it for a mislynch.  I would assume that is what less-experienced scum would do now.  And players who are not familiar with the bay12 playstyle are always easy targets to find something "scummy".  (Nowadays I find the best strategy for myself to find scum is to mostly observe/question/pressure on D1 without necessarily pushing a lynch to get information for D2.  One of these days It'll get me lynched for activelurking but such is life.)

[musing] It's also interesting to note that by observing and analyzing the "meta" one actively changes it.  Because now if I say "best odds of finding scum D1 is look who is picking on the 'new' players" then future scum will actively try to avoid fitting that profile, so the analysis becomes invalid.  So, from a personal perspective, it's best to keep good scumhunting tips to yourself.  But that's kind of counterproductive to the community as a whole.  [/musing]

*Oddball being defined as either someone "new" or some town moron trying to pull a gambit.

But for right now I've got to do some work and lay some brick, so I'll be back later.

[webadict]

Yo, wtf guys, one of the rules is to have fun! I will make your lives miserable until you start following that rule!

[Persus13]

Yo, wtf guys, one of the rules is to have fun! I will make your lives miserable until you start following that rule!

The beatings will continue until the morale improves apparently.

[Persus13]

TBF:

@Persus's most recent post: Even if I was scum, I'd still answer the question the same way.  (and just because I answered it that way in P25 doesn't mean I'm scum now, because it's true regardless of alignment).

@Persus's second-most-recent post:More like "I decided to go to sleep".  I was actually about to follow up today, and then I saw your posts.

Pozzai: Explain why you are buddying Tea.

Well that's a bunch of WIFOM then, okay. Do you remember a recent game you were town in you'd like to recommend?

TBF
Pretty sure I said how I want his reads
If I kill Pozzai N1, who are you going to have content to pursue going into D2?

I might need to reread D1 to find content on D2, depending on what comes up.

Why not do it now?

OSG:

Alright, Reading through the day now. I'll post reads on people as I finish with them.

You promised a list of reads yesterday, but weren't able to deliver. I understand you're busy, but do you think you'll have a chance to post them today?

Pozzai:

4 reads, yes. Have any changed? Doll has a point about you.

What exactly is Doll's point about me? Why don't YOU expand on it?

4 reads is still more than most people in the game has given, why is it an issue I 'only' gave 4, why is it not more important that multiple people have given (next to) none?

 And no, nothing major has changed in regards to this.

 What do you think of fish asking for my reads, being told I had given some and has proceeded to do 0 with the information? No confrontation or discussion at all about the reads he was so interested in me giving?

I assumed you'd figure out from the context that I was referring to doll's point about your reads. Specifically this one:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Even if planned pre-game, I feel like when you'd actually receive your information you'd still do a small stop and reconsider the options. In closed setups pre-planned stuff doesn't always turn out the same way as you'd planned.

 I feel both the whole "making a full list to interact with people" and the seemingly lack of any pause in the actions are pointing more in the direction of scum than town, albeit not a "well lockscum now to find the remaining x mafias" kind of way.

 Why are you so interested in small potentially irrelevant leans this early when you've not seen how far I'd press it?

You've literally asked someone why they would be interested in your reads.
Reads are the basis of interaction in this game. The game is ultimately determined by player's reads.
Reads indicate a players views and therefore their viewpoint and the position thereof i.e. allow that player to be read.
They also justify behavior, which is important, especially when your model of play isn't the same as other players.

I also have never played on a forum that is so claim and WIFOM happy, and generally am used to progress the days by sharing reads and discussing them rather than doing whatever the heck is going on at this point.

Any yet you've done none of this (sharing and discussing reads)?
You've even said that doing so would be counter to your designs.
Make up your mind, yo.

I didn't expand on it because you're already responding fairly poorly to the pressure given to you by doll and TBF, which is understandable, given doll's idea of pressure, but at the same time wanted you to be aware that doll had a point. Lenglon did a much better job on this front.

Sure 4 reads is better than a lot of people, but its still only a quarter of the players in this game. And the four reads were of people like flabort, who hasn't posted as much as he did early game. So I'm sure you had more reads than just 4 by then. And later on, you did start posting them.

Also, what you did in this post with TBF is classic deflection. You should also notice I've stated previously that if I wasn't voting flabort I'd be voting TBF, explicitly attacking him for lack of follow-up.

Posting a full readslist shows you want to seem active, as you can't possibly have anything remotely strong in terms of opinions on anyone.

 It's way better to fixate on the stronger reads and make sure you let people know those than adding a bunch of sleb into a pile "just because"

The weaker reads still generate content, because a snap judgement on someone tells you a bit about the player making the read list. Are the strong reads important yes, but sometimes the weak ones give good content. What's wrong with wanting to be engaged and active? I'm fine with it if you don't like posting a full list of reads (because most of reads on OSG is going to be "he's barely posted") but you seem to be implying its a scumtell here.

Again, I answered them in terms of what they gave, had they asked "do you have any reads, I'd have pointed out where they were, demand shit, and you'll get responded to in equal

 Their constant avoidance to actually give specifics as to where 'buddying' exists, their lack in interest in how the other person in the exchanges thought the exchange felt means he's just latching onto what's cool and popular.

 They also asked me to go read up on other games, but have had no interest in reading up on mine or Tea's and used it to throw shade in my direction.

You keep using they, but most of these complaints in this post are directed solely at TBF, and your last line refers to FallacyofUrist, I think. If you look at the cases brought against you by TBF, doll, and Lenglon, you'll notice that they have different reasons for voting you. Lenglon's voting you over your supposed hypocritical reads stance, doll has a slightly broader case on you, and TBF's voting you for buddying. You're lumping people in the game into an indistinguishable "they" in this post and its really weird, since I don't think you're using it as a gender neutral pronoun here.

Persus was on my ISO list which I intended to do today at some point, but frankly only awake right now because I set my alarm to +3hours earlier so will have to wait till tonight, because Persus' reason for scumreading me felt very lazy, got a postnumber down for Flabort? I kinda felt like I had read one more at some point that irked me a bit, but couldn't find it when I quickly looked through earlier.

Where did I say I thought you were scum?

Flabort:

2) I call them leads because it was the only moderately useful conversation topic that existed so far. Leads refers to anything that can spark conversation and lead to somebody voting over the topic of conversation. And they were unhelpful leads to me because I can't pull any useful evidence out of the WIFOM that they produce. However, they still produced some conversation which lead to other conversation producing more leads to follow, even if some of these leads are still tangled in WIFOM.

Have you been able to find more helpful leads now? When do you plan on using your vote again?

Unvote I feel TBF has fulfilled what I was pressuring him into.

 Is that an actual townread, or just a "well at least they entered the game"?

 If the latter why not place your vote on a new spot you want to pressure?

 If the first, can you walk me through that townread?

This, basically.

Shakerag:

Persus13:
As far as scum goes, I don't know, man.  It's D1.  Most of us are experienced enough to not do something totally scummy (at least on D1).  Statistically speaking, we're going to lynch an oddball* townie on D1.  Good scum analysis isn't going to start until D2, when we've all had a chance to fire off some abilities.

I'm pretty sure NQT or someone did an analysis awhile back and found this was surprisingly not true. I'll need to go dig that up to be sure. Otherwise i like this post. HUnting those trying to push lynches of town was my go-to strategy for awhile.

Tea:

This interaction is another reason I don't like Fallacy. It starts off with some more stream of consciousness that I find forced, and then Fallacy forgot how he framed the initial question by the time it was answered.

What makes you say that Fallacy forgot how he framed the question? I've been trying to see where you see it, but I can't.

[TheBiggerFish]

@Persus:I guess you could look at Mafia Marathon.

@Persus again: The context of D1 is different on D2.  Thus, rereading it now doesn't help me.

[Lenglon]

Unvote.
Changing locations tomorrow and I dont want to have a vote stuck floating at day end if im not able to post again until D2 due to lack of signal. Ill also be PMing web my contingency N1 action for the same circumstance. I do not at this time have a strong enough scumread on anyone to be willing to leave a indefinite lynch vote against them.
Hopefully this prep is unnecessary, and ill be posting tomorrow, though since I have a 7 hour shift and a 12 hour one both tomorrow I might have trouble posting more than a !got signal! post.
even in a worst case scenario ill be back on the 16th, and the 12th is a much more likely worst case than that. as such, I dont want to replace out over a 'maybe'.

[FallacyofUrist]

Doll asked for a reads list a while ago. Activity's going to be sparse for today and Saturday(and none at Sunday)(blame my horrible time management skills), but I think I have the time to provide that.

Me: Town, for sure.
hector13, Jack A T, 4maskwolf: Town. Scumhunting!
doll: Townier than before. She's actually scum hunting now, so that's a plus. A similar level applies to several less active hunters, Lenglon, Tiruin, Persus, possibly Pozzai, Tea, and flabort, who I haven't looked into enough. Maybe Fish. He looks to be attempting scum hunting.
Origamiscienceguy, Shakerag, TheDarkStar: Neutral. They kinda need to post more.
TolyK. I'm not exactly sure what's going on with him. Possible third party.

Wow, there are a lot of people in this game. I'm losing track. Also makes it hard to develop reads on everybody.

[Lenglon]

FoU: What is giving you 3rd party vibes about TolyK?

[Tea]

Tea:

This interaction is another reason I don't like Fallacy. It starts off with some more stream of consciousness that I find forced, and then Fallacy forgot how he framed the initial question by the time it was answered.

What makes you say that Fallacy forgot how he framed the question? I've been trying to see where you see it, but I can't.

Ohh, when trying to doctor the quote for context I quoted the wrong question, but it is in the same post:

"TolyK: If you were actually a cult leader, how would you go about convincing me you weren't the cult leader and getting my vote off you?"

Also, uh, I guess I shut my laptop too quickly after hitting the post button on my response to your earlier post given that I can't find it in the thread. Ugh.

[NJW2000]

PTW

[Tea]

Sorry for this monstrosity, it took me at least an hour to write this.

Tea:

It's not a particular vote that makes me uncomfortable. (And to be clear, what I meant by your vote being because of the wall was that I think by taking a wide net interactional approach, that made it more likely that you would vote me and talk to me about it. Although I do believe you that you were more likely to double up votes anyway based on your response.) I'm uncomfortable because I feel like the continual milking of reactions to this hella artificial thing diverts attention from things more likely to make the thread understand me and vice-versa.

What's artificial about Jack A T's first post. This is pretty normal behavior for Jack and since he's engaging you in a long dialouge, it seems to have worked. Does it feel off i na scummy way, or in a "Im not used to this" kind of way?

I feel like you lost track of his/my conversation with your first question here. As I think I've made clear I have been very unhappy about the extent to which the "long dialogue" has STILL BEEN ABOUT my reaction to his vote+subsequent question of me (which is less true upon my 2nd writing of this post at least). I don't think the fact that I feel discomfort with Jack's play around this is very meaningful for his alignment - I doubt I would be talking about it if I wasn't asked to.

What causes you to doubt his word here? More importantly, why does this matter at all if Jack had some preconceived ideas about what to ask people pre-game?

I'll get into this when I respond to Jack's questions in the post where he confirms his vote on me.

Way more people are focusing on these things than would be non-town in a standard game.

Are the people non-town, or are the things non-town? Can you explain your first sentence quoted a bit more?

I expanded upon it starting in the 3rd paragraph of this post. I think in general spending lots of time asking things that are unlikely to yield alignment indicative info is active lurking/more trying to look helpful than anything and thus a scumtell. But that behavior IMO was prevalent to the point that it was clearly to some extent a feature of site meta more than something that useful to look at as an individual tell.

FallacyofUrist is, uh. Thinking about the game like someone who expects to be around for a long time, for whatever reason? Which is probably a better tell in a standard game than here but I don't quite follow why he's directing effort toward the things that he's directing them to, or why he thinks he's getting ~nothing out of Shakerag but isn't ranking Shakerag in a similar category to doll/TheBiggerFIsh.

What's wrong with thinking long term? Why would FofU be expecting to die soon? More importantly, why does that make him scum as opposed to unprepared town? I understand you're suspicious of him for more reasons than that, but you put this one first, which implies its the most important.

My first point is what I was most interested in feedback on - so you could say it's "most important" to me in that sense, although the organization of this post is p stream of conscious-y. Scum, both by nature of being informed and a minority (latter being more relevant for 3Ps), have more reason in general to think of the game in a long-term manner - how to position themselves through the day game to make it deep into the game. I think a more town mindset is "what can I do right now to advance my understanding of the game?" - doing what you can while you're here and who knows if you'll make it through the night - which has been fairly absent in FoU's posts, IMO. "Underprepared" sounds like it could have a more coded meaning than I'm aware of, but from what I can tell I think not prioritizing getting reads and thus being underprepared is a scumtell, so.

[TolyK]

Tiruin:

Well, this has suddenly gone downhill, hasn't it.

IN YOUR EYES MAYBE @_@

Not only mine, apparently. See below.

Alright, alright, I got it.

My reasoning was to claim a part of my role. The reason w** I did that? To form a bit of trust, mostly to slightly increase the likelyhood that Jack would accept. I intend to give more information to Jack personally, as part of the experiment thingie. Other than this, I'm not currently giving out more information. Take what you will.

TolyK: Thoughts of the game and people's posts in general?
Also, you're doing this to Jack--in public--with little idea of how he thinks.
Why do you want to form trust with Jack, specifically?

I've kinda answered this, but again:
- I feel like Jack is the least readable.
- Jack is fairly active, and I can count on him remaining fairly active judging by past games.
- He's fun to play with on a "team", judging from my past experiences. (That's partially why he's scary, too )
- Pre-post edit: also, he has a sort of on-the-point humor I enjoy.
See end of post for results.


Shakerag:

<jokes and literally "dunno"s for EVERY FUCKING PLAYER>
TolyK - Still untrustworthy since KYOSN.
Pozzai - Also dunno, but since ponzi is new to bay12, is likely going to get ganed up on.  Scum is likely going to try to push a lynch on this dude.

Basically the only relevant crap Shakerag's posted. I get you're in a post-life crisis, and day 1 is usually a bunch of crap voting (for other crap), but actually you're right, it's a clusterfuck. Still, it's possible to get reads on people, even if they're mostly "seems towny".

PPE: Oh, wow, relevant stuff!

As far as scum goes, I don't know, man.  It's D1.  Most of us are experienced enough to not do something totally scummy (at least on D1).  Statistically speaking, we're going to lynch an oddball* townie on D1.  Good scum analysis isn't going to start until D2, when we've all had a chance to fire off some abilities.  If was absolutely forced to pick someone who was scum, I'd start looking at whoever is pushing for a Ponzi/Tea lynch, as they're the "newest" players here and most likely to violate one of our mafia mores unknowingly.  Having said that, even looking at the players pushing for that lynch you're more likely (in my opinion) to hit a less-experienced but well-intentioned town.  Good scum players should be undetectable on D1.  Even not-so-good scum players are unlikely to wave a big red flag with "I'm scum" embroidered on it on D1. 

So.  This has kind of turned into an essay/analysis. 

Anyway, looking back on my earlier scum playing days, I would try to look for something anyone did as "scummy" and push on it for a mislynch.  I would assume that is what less-experienced scum would do now.  And players who are not familiar with the bay12 playstyle are always easy targets to find something "scummy".  (Nowadays I find the best strategy for myself to find scum is to mostly observe/question/pressure on D1 without necessarily pushing a lynch to get information for D2.  One of these days It'll get me lynched for activelurking but such is life.)

*stuff about how measuring a system changes its properties*

So... as a tl;dr: Day 1 doesn't really matter.

So... Who do you think we should lynch, if scum isn't obvious D1?



Jack A T:

Reads
...
FallacyofUrist: Hasn't left RVS yet, aside from a little bit of TolyK examination.  Wary neutral.

I'm actually annoyed that FoU stopped questioning me. I gave a fairly weak response (in retrospect), yet he's seemed to have backed off.

Tea: See my last post.

Can I point out a few flaws? I think I can. Here we go:
- Bandwagons on one's self is different from a bandwagon on someone else: you know your own alignment (let's say, Town), but not "someone else's", so naturally you would feel it's unjustified because you have exact prior information.
- You're voting Tea because she is questioning the effectiveness of how you're trying to get information? Or did I miss something?


doll:

Pozzai:
7) All of the players who act as stabilizing factors (Tiruin in particular, a few of the less active vets) are pretty inactive so you're mostly left with the grinding mass of assholes like myself and shakerag

Can I just say that this is spot-on and pretty funny? Yeah, I'll say it. Now onto nitpicking reads...

Shakerag ... 4) I actually kind of think he's town anyway

What makes you think he's town?

flabort I might go for a deep gameplay analysis in a bit if nothing develops otherwise, else: 1) Contributed a lot to the early game ...

I'd like to challenge this statement: what exactly has he done in the early game? All I can remember is RVS stuff and complaining a bit... right?

TolyK
there's quicktopic context that I'm missing which I feel would add a lot here
so long as he continues to present a strong daygame in the thread, probably town

See: end of this post.

FallacyOfUrist
Useless, active lurking, now inactive scum
Should spend less time writing bad short fiction and more in this game, because he's losing it

... what?

TolyK
Is Jack town?

See: end of this post. Short answer is ... likely yes?


Persus:

Persus - could you expound on why you're mad at this game? you phrased it like the TBF/Pozzai interaction and low activity from experienced players were aggrivating the problem, but that the core issue was something else. What is that core issue?

I like mafia games to be intelligent, fun, and enjoyable. This game has not been that at all so far, and I'm pretty sure Tea and TolyK would agree with that to some extent.

To some extent, yes. It's been mostly players engaged in conversations based on misunderstanding + huge posts that are tiresome to read through... Though, as Shakerag has noted (above), that's pretty par for the course on Day 1 - hard to get insights. In machine learning and related fields, this amounts to a "burn-in period"...

Plus I'm frustrated playing the game, because I think I have good reads on the people who have posted a lot like you, TBF, and Pozzai, but others like OSG have barely posted anything noteworthy. 4maskwolf, Fallacy, TolyK, and flabort were fairly active early on, and none of them are posting now, which means that I can't improve my reads on them, and Tiruin, Jack, and Shakerag are being themselves, and are always difficult to read. I always get worried that the scum has managed to successfully avoid the spotlight of the game, but the player size of this game increases that possibility here. Finally, I'm frustrated with some real life stuff, and this game doesn't help against that the way I'd like it too.

Sorry to hear about real life stuff, hope that goes well for you in the end.
I've been on and off mostly because I needed to sleep a lot. And during yesterday I was PFP.
About player size... I wouldn't worry all that much, at least not yet. If you have strong reads on several people, and they're not all strong-town, then it might mke sense to focus on them. I personally don't expect to keep everything in my head about all players...


FoU:

TolyK. I'm not exactly sure what's going on with him. Possible third party.

I said above in this post that I'm actually kind of annoyed at you not pushing this. And here you are, saying everyone is null or town-ish except me, who is third party-y. Why are you not engaging me or at least asking questions, if I'm the only one acting strange?
Hopefully this post gives enough material, eh?


Re: Experiment:
So, I made a chat thingie with Jack. Unfortunately, it turns out that the experiment I planned won't work out with him, so that's called off for a bit.
We did divulge some information to each other, though, and at least on my end it seems to check out.

Also, if you had the thought of mentioning your role/ability/true name--which may happen while reading this sentence--would you mention it in public?

I have yet to determine my all-powerful true name.  I have considered hinting at part of my convoluted role name, though.  I will say this in public for now: I'm a modified version of WWI's worst rifle.  The time is neither strategically right nor comedically well timed for a name reveal.  Are you satisfied with this response?

This is what Jack told me in the chatty chat. He told me more, obviously, but that'll do for now. Of course, if he's lying he's just being consistent, but...
He feels like he's being honest at least about his role, which he has partially revealed, and it's consistent with that I've expected of this game.

To continue the experiment, though... is there anyone who thinks they have a useless day action? I.e. one they'd think about not using?

[hector13]

Ah mah gerd, the problem with coming into things mid-thread is I can't remember what the piss I wanted to say and I don't know if anybody dealt with it later, or if it's even still relevant.

Bugger it, I have 15 pages to read, you guys'll get what you get. Going through it from... here, arbitrarily chosen.

Probably another wall, byraway. Some people may have multiple sections since I find it likely I won't be bothered to go back and edit things later.

PPE: spoilered larger sections, 'cause this got out of hand quickly.

PPE2: how the fu- you guys posted 9 pages since yesterday!?

TBF

EBWOP
You know, I can't tell who's being the lazier one. TheBiggerFish or Pozzai. If I had two votes they would both be used for pressure votes now.

I'm not being lazy, I'm trying to sort out a lease.  Also this thread is moving fast enough I'm having trouble keeping up with it sometimes, geez.

That said: hector:What was that post supposed to mean?

Pozzai:Why haven't you read anything else on this forum?  Have you not even read the pinned threads (in this subforum)?

More later.

I think something about pre-empting my thoughts on matters, because I don't want to be accused of parroting, totes, or I was trying to make it look like I was being funny in an effort to not make it look like I didn't want to be accused of parroting, and the funny part just took over.

Nah, I just don't like it when people ninja what I want to say.

I might need to reread D1 to find content on D2, depending on what comes up.

Er... you will need to reread D1 to find content on D2, and likely D1 and D2 for D3 etc.

This is something you should be in the habit of doing

@Tiruin: I'm most suspicious of Pozzai.  Refusing to engage and clinging to Tea just kind of make me think 'scum'.

I don't quite understand what you mean by that question.  Yes, I' ve seen people commenting on my actions?  Lenglon specifically, most recently.

Because I have something to actually pursue.

Pozzai:I wouldn't say it's that you are interacting with someone you know, it's that you appeared to be only interacting with the person you know.  That said, you've stopped doing it, so Unvote.

Whoa there, Nelly.

You start this off with "Pozzai is most suspicious" and end it with "not suspicious enough to vote, however".

Can you talk me through this? Do you think Pozzai is interacting with these people actively - seeking out the interaction - or passively - reacting to something?

FoU

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[1] You have engaged in what I expect of reasonable RVS play. Kinda.

[1]: What part of my RVS play wasn't reasonable? Good to hear I'm part of the way there...

You're going out of your way to ask questions, though you're asking a bit too many, which makes it harder to encourage someone to answer with content (see Shakerag's response to your questions) and they all seem... I can't remember what I wanted to say. You like hypotheticals, and that doesn't really (in my opinion) get a great deal of content in the game since you're asking about theory, which is only tangentially applicable to any particular game.

[2]Anyway, you claim your day game needs work. What do you think makes a good day game, and who has displayed it so far?

[2]: Now, the day game is different depending on what phase of the game one is in. I'm assuming you're referring to a good initial voting stage.

You. Flabort. 4maskwolf. Jack A T.

Well I meant in general, but okay. Another tip: usually I assume when someone asks a question there's an implicit "and why?" attached

Why do you think they have displayed good initial voting stage games?

[3] Who has not? (displayed a good day game)

[3]:

Doll. TheBiggerFish.
The rest are kinda in between.

Now for the rest. What makes a good day game? Activity, for one. Both in the sense of post count and activeness--that is, the seeking out of new leads, following of old ones, and response to questioning. Meaningful stuff, y'know?

This was important and I can't remember why.

Meh. See next section, since what I want to say applies more there I think.

[4] What do you think this means regarding these players alignment? (alignments? I Kant England twoday)

[4]:
Now, it is a bit early, for the most part, to comment on alignment. For the most part, people look like either active or lazy town to me. Doll is an exception, and TolyK is bordering on one(my opinion might change when the experiment goes through). Doll is deliberately making herself the center of attention. As in, that's what she's going for, not creating it as a side effect of what she's doing. I'm thinking third party, because scum wouldn't be so audacious(but then, it could be a bizarre gambit). I suppose we'll see Day 2. Maybe she's a jester trying to get herself lynched Day 2 when she's found alive. Well, we'll see. As for TolyK... if he's not town, he's a cult leader, but it is less solid than it is with doll. I might look into Persus(Perseus?)' behavior in a bit, based on your own accusation, for the moment though, lazy town.

It's never too early for commenting on alignment. Never ever. You may not have a strong feeling either way, but if you say you think someone is worthy of existence (town) or you want to kill 'em (scum) that will influence their behaviour, provides a bit more content. Depending on the player, of course.

Anyway, you make a fair point regarding doll maybe being a Jester, but I disagree.

My vote on Persus was about 90% RVS, to be fair. I did find their post to be wooden, but it was their first post and I think they've done better since so... yeah. In saying that, you do comment on Persus as being lazy town... you might've gone into this later, but what makes you think they're lazy town and not lazy scum, or lazy third-party?

Other than that, and with my opening to this section in mind, what do you have to say regarding the alignments of the players you mentioned above? (15 pages and two days later)

Pozzai PPE: Nah, doesn't feel quite right anymore...

Pozzai

May've been addressed already, but:

I haven't shared them(well kind of have in some interactions) and I wont, because it breaks the purpose.

 If I say "I did this and that because I hope to get these results" I murk the waters for the results I get.

 There's no point in giving people an exact blueprint of what you're doing/intending to do.

*cough cough*

If scum!4mask, might be informative if their arguments feels reachy or contrived.

So... you're willing to let scum know a little bit about how to hide themselves from you, but you're unwilling to let town know how to show themselves to you?

You also seem to be awfully interested in other players reads of those that are voting you:

flabort on TBF

Lenglon on TBF's suspicion

Lenglon on TBF in general

Almost as though you're trying to deflect attention (votes?) onto a person that can easily be made to look scummier than you.

What do you think of TBF?

It seems from your reads that you have a much stronger case against both TBF and doll (in the sense that nobody is going to vote with you based on meta) than you do for the person you're voting for at this point, which is Tea. Why are you voting for Tea here, and not TBF or doll? (vote count at the time)

Tolyk

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Woah, I missed this. Plenty of things I don't like, Hector:

Pozzai

...
Do you think it's wise to be telegraphing the things you find scummy so early?

Hold on, are you saying that we shouldn't be calling out scum play?

I have literally no idea how you managed to pull that idea from that sentence, or the context of that interaction.

Pozzai said they'd find 4mask scummy if 4mask's cases later felt contrived or reachy. I thought that meant that if anyone at any point in the game does that, they'll get scum read by Pozzai. On the one hand that lets the town know that if Pozzai misses something like that later, Pozzai is bad. On the other hand, it lets the scum know what to avoid doing to not get scum read in Pozzai's eyes. Since this was a post made within the early portion of D1 (within the first 24 hours I think) that struck me as a silly thing to bring up, hence "why are you telegraphing - letting others know - what you find scummy so early?"

Persus13

I don't like you.

Also, this game has hammers, so please be careful about bandwagons on people.

This is a part of why.

The rest of your post seems rather... wooden, like it's there just to be there.

Mostly I don't like you.

"A woody sort of sound... Gaud.... GAUD..."
Jokes aside...
- Why don't you like the post against wagons? Granted it's 9 to hammer, so it's premise is incorrect, but why else?

The post in question.

Well... of the 6 questions he asked, 4 of them were about other games. His comment to Jack was about the only thing of note in the post, maybe the comment and question to doll too. The rest of it, the answers he was demanding of others, didn't seem they'd be particularly useful.

- You don't like the person > You think they're scummy? In terms of what you just said. How is that particularly relevant?

When did I say I thought he was scummy?

- Is it because you're fighting over number 13? :p

Pretty much, actually.

- Can you explain why you say there's no substance in his post?

As I said, 4 of the 6 questions were about other games. Understandable perhaps to get a grip on someone's meta (assuming he reads the games, and the person answering them answers honestly, neither of which we can ascertain) but not so much to this game, since meta changes.

doll

hector13
Blah blah competent player don't want to clog this up with RVS is that a good idea kashira nano desu ne
Is what I'm doing a good idea at all, do you think?

I like this question. I really like this question. If I could make a question human and have s-

*cough*

I mean, sure, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You're a competent player too.

I might come back to this later. Then again, I might not.

Unless you want me to not engage in a tit-for-tat "who can be more ambiguous" thing... while entertaining, I s'pose I'll go with my gut and not do that.

Sure, I like what you're doing. You're being typically verbose though, which I'm not a fan of, and you're taking up a great deal of attention early doors, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The tone of your D1 posts has changed again though; uncertain if that's intentional or you're just having fun with what you have right now.

This isn't something I can really give an accurate thought on, given I need to see how you conclude it. Presently: so far, so good.

So, what do you think about doll now, after not much more had been said by her (i.e. after she's gone quiet)?

Must've been bedtime.

I find myself being a bit terse with you, why is this happening..? Hm...

Not much has changed, to be honest. Still got a town-lean on doll. I think this post of yours is from ~36 hours into D1, so yeah. There's only so much time someone can invest in doing bizarro things in any particular mafia game. I haven't read beyond this yet, so this may change.

FallacyOfUrist
What's your role, FoU-chan?

10) Have fun with the wifom, nano desu

What, expecting me to answer? How about this: I'll tell you what my role isn't. For Day 1: Seto Kaiba. That is, that's not my role.
Now, the question is, whether you're scum trying to get role information out of this, or town trying to see how I react to blatant role fishing.

Return question: Pick two of these five questions to answer.
1. Are you willing to provide a list of Japanese honorifics and what they mean to this forum?
2. Does your theme have anything to do with peacocks?
3. If you had a night kill that only works on cult leaders and survivors, would you use it in lieu of your normal actions?
4. If you had a self-revive that only works during the first two cycles, would you make an effort to direct the scum kill to yourself?
5. Rate each of these questions in terms of usefulness on a scale from 1 to 5 where 1 is the highest and 5 is the lowest.

How is this supposed to help? I get it's a reaction test, but aren't we out of that stage already?

There's something wrong here, perhaps you can identify it.

unrelated: does everyone come out of RVS at the same time?

I'm sad there's less of it than I thought

Of the game or of your own post? Yours seemed to have been pretty hefty. :p

My post, I thought it was longer. Not that that would've been a good thing heh.

Persus

Reply to this, that I can't be bothered quoting and editing:

Fair enough. Much better post, though lol at only spending an hour on a WoT

Still a bit iffy about you bringing up the hammers, 'cause it was D1 and as Tolyk pointed out, 9 voted are required to hammer at this point. Seems like an awful lot of votes to be worried about.
OSG

origamiscienceguy
You're a mildly active, semi-competant mafia player.
That usually makes you real easy to read, and so not a real threat nor a real liability.
Who should I kill tonight and why?

anybody but me

Other than that, I don't know. I haven't read people yet. I'll get back to you on that.

obvscum, only interested in your own survival. Maybe TP. Well... probably more TP than scum, to be fair.

OragamiScience
How much of Mafia is emotional, how much is critical thinking, and how much is BS?

To me, none of it is emotional. I don't put any emotion into my game. I put a lot of critical thinking into it though. And it is always all BS. None of what you critically thunk is ever correct, especially in a closed, chaotic game like this.

but i love you senpai

Do you not count gut feelings as emotional? What would you say does count as emotional?

I mean this literally isn't important at all in the context of the game, I'm just curious and willing to piss off everyone else by starting a tangential conversation in the game
Jack AT

Tiruin: Tiruin.

haaaaaaaaaaaaa I like that.

hector13: Interesting first post, with a serious early vote for Persus.  Won't be active again for a bit, though.  I look forward to his next post. Null for lack of extended content.

Whoa-ho-hooo there, just to be clear, that was not a serious vote. It was my first post, man.

I guess I should be pleased that I can make a crappy RVS pressure vote look super srs..?
I need someone who has played with TBF before to give an opinion on this, especially the bolded section:

@Tiruin: Because if I was scum in that sort of environment I'd probably do the exact same thing, that is, cling to a town buddy that I know.

I don't know why he interacted with you, other than I guess that you, you know, asked him questions.  I do know that it was a departure from what I saw as a pattern of mostly refusing to interact.

@Pozzai: Saying "Kai is like Shakerag is like Kai" isn't helpful either.  Yes, you've given some differentiation, I guess, but it's not exactly going to help us understand your understanding of Shakerag.

@Pozzai: I believe you're missing something called 'context'.  The feeling that your interaction was weird predated the pressure on you, as far as I know (and as far as you've said), and my later clarification that it felt like buddying was pretty much why I thought it was weird.  I just wasn't in any state to articulate that the first time I posted.

How come I haven't posted my own reads: First off, a lot of them are null.  Second off, I've already made my suspicions clear.  Basically, the only thing I've got is a slight scumlean on you, right now.  Everyone else I haven't really had much interaction with or observation of to build a decent idea.

Also, why the heck are you referring to yourself in the third person in that readlist?  Strikes me as a cheap rhetorical trick...

...No, I "threw shade" on you for not reading the stickied threads, not past games.  The stickied threads aren't past games (mostly).  Jack A T told you that, even.  So why do you misrepresent me like that?

Pozzai: How confident are you in your meta read of Tea?

Tea: What do you think of Pozzai's read on you?

Also Tea:Who is Kalas?

FoU

Doll asked for a reads list a while ago. Activity's going to be sparse for today and Saturday(and none at Sunday)(blame my horrible time management skills), but I think I have the time to provide that.

Me: Town, for sure.
hector13, Jack A T, 4maskwolf: Town. Scumhunting!
doll: Townier than before. She's actually scum hunting now, so that's a plus. A similar level applies to several less active hunters, Lenglon, Tiruin, Persus, possibly Pozzai, Tea, and flabort, who I haven't looked into enough. Maybe Fish. He looks to be attempting scum hunting.
Origamiscienceguy, Shakerag, TheDarkStar: Neutral. They kinda need to post more.
TolyK. I'm not exactly sure what's going on with him. Possible third party.

Wow, there are a lot of people in this game. I'm losing track. Also makes it hard to develop reads on everybody.

How is Lenglon less active than 4mask?

Why do you have OSG, TDS, and Shakes as folk who need to post more and thus neutral, and not the "several less active hunters" as in the above line?

Tired. Will hopefully post tomorrow, 'cause god damn that was a lot.

[origamiscienceguy]

I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement. I'm just an anti-shulk right now. Sorry