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[Retropunch]

The basic controls of the game are very smooth and are in no way difficult to get used to.  The single rigged weapons are the sole exception to this rule, and any number of people have commented upon it on Focus/Deck13's forums and the steam forums, there was even a major patch that altered the moveset of that particular weapon class so that it would be possible to animation cancel.  If you want to talk about the Single-rigged weapons being clunky, then you have all the ammunition that you could ever desire.  However, the moveset and controls of one weapon class out of FIVE (heavy, single-rigged, dual-rigged, one hand, and staff.  Did you actually play the game?  Your posts say you did but that's some awfully basic data to get wrong.), not including basic movement and evasion controls, is hardly an accurate picture of the game as a whole.

And agreeing with a criticism of a mechanic is in no way defanging the argument I made, the basic controls of The Surge are excellent, and the VAST majority of weapons share that trait.  Further, in spite of the criticism that single-rigged weapons have received they are still considered to be excellent by much of the community (I personally disagree, but that is entirely due to playstyle.)

I also never said that the injection system 'wasn't great', nor did I praise it.  I also did not say that the jump/duck mechanic 'wasn't great', I just didn't have cause to use it so it seemed extraneous, go watch some youtube videos of actually skilled players (unlike me, I am barely acceptable to middling), they can do some really goddamn impressive shit with those mechanics.  I am not fanboying.  There is room for improvement in the game, which is why I am interested in seeing where they go with The Surge 2.

I very seriously believe that if the first weapon other than the reclaimed piston you can lay hands on wasn't the goddamn plasma cutter the claims of clunky controls wouldn't even exist.  For Hel's sake even the Endras TITAN hammer is smoother and easier to control than those huge sweeping attack animations.

Sorry, my mistake - I haven't played for quite some time and so had put heavies in with single rigged and forgotten about staffs. I doubt I'd be able to tell you the different weapon types in DS and I've played that considerably more and more recently.

That being said, I think you're being a bit contradictory as you seem to be saying there is room for criticism and that I have all the ammunition I would need to say it's clunky.

I'd say that if a whole weapon class (even if it's one out of FIVE instead of three) is clunky, it's still possible to say the controls are a bit clunky which you seem to be agreeing with. On top of that, the jumping/ducking system did seem unnecessary and therefore a bit clunky (in terms of 'it's a clunky way to do dodging'). Walking and general movement isn't, but as the whole game is about bashing things then that's what the criticism is based on.

No one was saying they're so clunky that it ruins the game completely or that it's all awful. My issue is that there's enough clunk to justify it as a criticism of the game, but certainly not one that makes it unplayable.

 

[NullForceOmega]

One weapon class being harder to control does not justify calling the entire games control scheme 'clunky', it does however raise a valid point of discussion regarding that specific weapon class, especially in contrast to otherwise very clean system.

The Surge is not without flaws, but really the controls are by no means even close to bad, and I struggle to understand why it is what people latch onto.  If I were going to level a serious criticism at the game it would be pointed squarely at some of the sloppy coding of the mobs and bosses, seriously, homing attacks, tethered animations, rotating base positions, and actor stability being assigned by weapon class instead of equipment are all massively larger issues than a class of weapons that are slow and sweeping in their animations.

The jump/dodge isn't by any means clunky, it's terrifyingly responsive, but it is extraneous in that it is a mechanic that has had a disproportionate amount of effort put into it compared to its utility.  I've seen videos of players using jump/dodge to evade numerous attacks from multiple mobs while executing counterstrikes and parries continuously, but the fact that all of that is possible but that there is functionally no need to ever do so makes it a weird design choice.

And there is always room for criticism of a games' systems, nothing is ever perfect and errors or bad decisions should be called out and discussed, I am only questioning the use of 'clunky' as an acceptable descriptor of the game when it is in reference to a single potentially flawed element.

i.e.: "Single rigged weapons are clunky and unresponsive" vs: "The controls are clunky and unresponsive".  One of those statements is demonstrably false and the other is a valid talking point.

Maybe we're just using different criterion for our statements here, to my perspective you have to judge like elements of the game to each other before to establish a baseline before you apply a descriptor to the product as a whole.  So to establish that baseline you would need to compare all instances of the controls, and if you do that then single-rigged will stand out from the others in that it is less responsive.  But that lack of smoothness is an outlier, and should be discussed as such.

[Draignean]

One weapon class being harder to control does not justify calling the entire games control scheme 'clunky', it does however raise a valid point of discussion regarding that specific weapon class, especially in contrast to otherwise very clean system.

The Surge is not without flaws, but really the controls are by no means even close to bad, and I struggle to understand why it is what people latch onto.  If I were going to level a serious criticism at the game it would be pointed squarely at some of the sloppy coding of the mobs and bosses, seriously, homing attacks, tethered animations, rotating base positions, and actor stability being assigned by weapon class instead of equipment are all massively larger issues than a class of weapons that are slow and sweeping in their animations.

And the jump/dodge isn't by any means clunky, it's terrifyingly responsive, but it is extraneous in that it is a mechanic that has had a disproportionate amount of effort put into it compared to its utility.  I've seen videos of players using jump/dodge to evade numerous attacks from multiple mobs while executing counterstrikes and parries continuously, but the fact that all of that is possible but that there is functionally no need to ever do so makes it a weird design choice.

And there is always room for criticism of a games' systems, nothing is ever perfect and errors or bad decisions should be called out and discussed, I am only questioning the use of 'clunky' as an acceptable descriptor of the game when it is in reference to a single potentially flawed element.

The jump/duck always struck me as the Surge's parry. Learning how to do it well will pay dividends and enable you to clear much faster, but you can also just learn the art of backing up quickly and strafing until the opening appears. Personally, I tried it a couple times and then decided it very definitely wasn't for me.

Surge definitely punishes you for button spamming. I remember a couple of double-rigged attacks where I was desperately trying to cancel out of an attack before some crazy-pants decked my shit in. Punishing you for spamming, however, is not not the same as being clunky.

I should probably do another run at some point, but I recall my major issue is that I stopped feeling any form of threat after I mastered the spacing on the staff weapon's lunging attack. It came out fast, it had phenomenal range, it was attached to a boss weapon, and it could be chained into some pretty kickass combos. Phase I of the final boss was cool and interesting, and I wanted more enemies in the game like that. By contrast, phase 2 kinda left a poor taste in my mouth because it was vulnerable to the exact same tactic I'd been spamming on every other enemy in the game with the exception of the killdozers.

[Retropunch]

i.e.: "Single rigged weapons are clunky and unresponsive" vs: "The controls are clunky and unresponsive".  One of those statements is demonstrably false and the other is a valid talking point.

No, that's how YOU feel. You can't say that it's 'false' as how the controls feel depends on the player - I really liked the control of mirrors edge, a lot of people felt it was way too light etc. etc.. It's a subjective thing, and as such, you can't decide what is and isn't a valid talking point.

We may well be using different criteria, and everyone has their own ideas of what constitutes clunky and what doesn't and there's enough people saying they think it feels a bit clunky for it not to be completely disregarded.

If someone asked me what I thought of the game, I'd say 'It's an overall good souls-like game, however it has some bland and confusing environments and some elements are a bit clunky'.

My justification for the 'elements being clunky' is:
-Some of the weapons feel a bit unresponsive.
-Some systems can feel unnecessary/tacked on (jump/duck).
-Some movement can feel a bit odd TO ME.
-Some mobs don't react well (getting stuck in the environment etc.).

I don't think any of those are unfair criticisms - no one has been saying 'the controls are unusably bad', just that there are elements of clunk, as you've admitted is the case. I think most people latch on to the controls being clunky as if they happened to pick single rigged as their weapon type (keeping in mind it's system of rewarding you for sticking with a single weapon type) then they'd have a worse experience. That is clunky design, and whilst it may be an outlier, it is very much part of the game and the rest of the game mechanics aren't so perfect as to say 'It's amazing in every way, except for single rigged controls'. 

I think we can both agree that the first game was good but had it's flaws and we hope The Surge 2 smooths out any clunky elements in the second game, and as such we can put this to rest.

[Egan_BW]

I liked single rigged until it got me killed repeatedly on level 2, and then I swapped to one handed and the game magically got way easier.
Slow and wonky weapons tend to be good in souls games, imo. They let you demonstrate your own skill, rather than just your character's ability to swing around a dex-stick really quickly.

[Teneb]

Twin-rigged is my favorite, mostly because they are fast (thus letting me back off if I have to) and they're the only weapon class whose combos I actually know.

[BlackFlyme]

Apparently the game got another DLC last month, and I completely missed it. I only noticed since the game updated on steam today. It's a Wild West themed DLC called "The Good, the Bad and the Augmented"

Looks like it's some sort of arena challenge mode.

[Mephisto]

I should probably finish this at some point. A certain type of game massively appeals to me. I'll buy it, play for a few hours, then completely forget about it for months at a time.

[Teneb]

Apparently the game got another DLC last month, and I completely missed it. I only noticed since the game updated on steam today. It's a Wild West themed DLC called "The Good, the Bad and the Augmented"

Looks like it's some sort of arena challenge mode.

It's fun. Of course you need to like the game already, since it's pretty much running a gauntlet of enemies with modifiers you pick previously.

Also good for levelling if you are feeling wherever you are in the game is too hard.

[NullForceOmega]

Rise survivors, it is time for the end of the old.  Live from Jericho City, It's The Surge 2!

A couple hours in so far, killed a lot of dudes in power armor with improvised weapons, and have generally been having a blast.

Lots and lots of changes from the original, slightly slower combat, much tighter controls, and somewhat less punishing (kinda, they don't hit quite as hard and armor means more).  So far I've only encountered one recycled weapon from the original, though I expect they will all, or almost all, be here.  Some things have gotten more difficult, executing a slide or lunge attack is a lot harder now, but the combo system has been reworked and it feels great to me.

Custom character creation, but don't expect the most comprehensive tools, this isn't really what I would call bare-bones, but it's close.  lots more stuff going on too, and much more area to explore.  The map is still mostly useless, but it is also an interactive object in the game world that you can check, and it does have a you are here marker.

There's asynchronous shared worldspace too, I've been having fun taking down revenge targets and collecting scrap and energy from other player's corpses.

Weapon mastery is gone, so you won't have to (unnecessarily) worry about not having enough proficiency to make good use of a new weapon.  Implants are swappable at any time, and you can save three builds for different purposes.  Equipment upgrading, fabrication, and core level upgrades are all at a single station now, making it more convenient, but eliminating the old scrap multiplier workaround.  Upgrading your core gets you energy levels and points to increase health, stamina, or energy efficiency, with re-specs costing a pretty paltry 500 scrap.

Your drone now has WAY more utility, and it isn't just gimmick stuff either.  You can equip GUNS to your drone, and the guns are NOT SHIT, you can actually kill enemies with them (but you won't get any materials for upgrading your crap if you do).

I'll report back with more later.

[askovdk]

...
Weapon mastery is gone, so you won't have to (unnecessarily) worry about not having enough proficiency to make good use of a new weapon.  Implants are swappable at any time, and you can save three builds for different purposes.  Equipment upgrading, fabrication, and core level upgrades are all at a single station now, making it more convenient, but eliminating the old scrap multiplier workaround.  Upgrading your core gets you energy levels and points to increase health, stamina, or energy efficiency, with re-specs costing a pretty paltry 500 scrap.
...

Thank you for the early impression. The swap between builds was the 1 feature I really missed in the first, so I can't wait getting into this. 

[Teneb]

I'm happy the reviews are pretty positive for the new game. I'm holding out on buying it until I finally get around to finishing #1, but still.

[forsaken1111]

I saw that the 2nd game came out and noticed I own the first game, must have gotten it in some bundle? Tried it out, it's fun. Killed a mining machine and felt bad about it. Got a shiny coin.

[ventuswings]

I'm happy the reviews are pretty positive for the new game. I'm holding out on buying it until I finally get around to finishing #1, but still.

It's unfortunate Steam reviews are ruined due to early launch technical problems. The game is definite improvement from the predecessor (although I am not a fan of online components that have been added).

[Teneb]

I'm happy the reviews are pretty positive for the new game. I'm holding out on buying it until I finally get around to finishing #1, but still.

It's unfortunate Steam reviews are ruined due to early launch technical problems. The game is definite improvement from the predecessor (although I am not a fan of online components that have been added).

I didn't actually see the steam user ones, just from here and critics.