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Author Topic: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Strategy Phase 2212  (Read 35162 times)

helmacon

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #405 on: June 21, 2017, 09:21:40 pm »

Space is not cold. Space actually has lots of heat, but low overall temperature. That's because there's just not enough medium for efficient transfer of energy. If we had substrate around a heat sink and we let it sublimate off into space, then yea we could get rid of heat pretty fast that way. The problem is you would need to keep vast amounts of that substrate on board, and resupply often.
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VoidSlayer

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #406 on: June 21, 2017, 09:37:07 pm »

Wouldn't it radiate heat even without convection?

helmacon

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #407 on: June 21, 2017, 09:39:09 pm »

A little bit, but probably not enough to be used as a coolant system.
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RAM

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #408 on: June 21, 2017, 11:39:53 pm »

Space is such that there will usually be a direction in which you can get rid of heat faster than you receive it, so cooling is 'possible'. The alternative is a situation where you are trying to run a fridge in a volcano, no matter what you try, if the 'hot' part of the cooling system is cooler than the environment that you are trying to expel the heat into then you will heat up the fridge's interior rather than chill it. The downside is that vacuum is about the best insulator that there is. A ship left adrift in deep space will freeze, but it will take its time doing so. I mean, people can survive, like, a minute floating in open space, at about zero Kelvin. Liquid nitrogen is nowhere near that cold but take a swim in it and you won't last a second. So you can run a laser pretty decently by sinking its heat into the ship. And you can run a laser ship pretty decently by waiting for the heat to dissipate between battles. But you will eventually roast your ship if you just keep shooting forever.

On the other hand, this is somewhat soft Sci-fi, so we can probably somewhat ignore this sort of thing...
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VoidSlayer

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #409 on: June 21, 2017, 11:52:08 pm »

Space is such that there will usually be a direction in which you can get rid of heat faster than you receive it, so cooling is 'possible'. The alternative is a situation where you are trying to run a fridge in a volcano, no matter what you try, if the 'hot' part of the cooling system is cooler than the environment that you are trying to expel the heat into then you will heat up the fridge's interior rather than chill it. The downside is that vacuum is about the best insulator that there is. A ship left adrift in deep space will freeze, but it will take its time doing so. I mean, people can survive, like, a minute floating in open space, at about zero Kelvin. Liquid nitrogen is nowhere near that cold but take a swim in it and you won't last a second. So you can run a laser pretty decently by sinking its heat into the ship. And you can run a laser ship pretty decently by waiting for the heat to dissipate between battles. But you will eventually roast your ship if you just keep shooting forever.

On the other hand, this is somewhat soft Sci-fi, so we can probably somewhat ignore this sort of thing...

I mean, I did mean the ship to shoot short bursts anyway.  We are running off solar powered batteries here.  The idea is make the cannon ship first then the fusion generator to power it, so the early version will be weaker.

RAM

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #410 on: June 22, 2017, 12:15:05 am »

I assume that metallic hydrogen is an effective thermal conductor, so it ought to make an effective heat-sink to get lots of heat a long way away from the laser with minimal space needed around the device itself. Along with being an effective electrical conductor and whatever else that ought to make it very useful for building the laser's shooty bits as well as the cooly bits.
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VoidSlayer

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #411 on: June 22, 2017, 12:25:22 am »

I assume that metallic hydrogen is an effective thermal conductor, so it ought to make an effective heat-sink to get lots of heat a long way away from the laser with minimal space needed around the device itself. Along with being an effective electrical conductor and whatever else that ought to make it very useful for building the laser's shooty bits as well as the cooly bits.

The metallic hydrogen super conductors are what we are trying to cool in the first place...

Anyway, I'll just change that to "make the cooling systems smaller" or something.  Right now the coolant systems increase the size of the whole thing by a factor of 5.

RAM

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #412 on: June 22, 2017, 02:40:14 am »

Quote
0 "Last Resort" Missile Scrambler:
1 "Stand Off" Laser Vessel: RAM
I like both. We really need to work on smoothing out some flaws, but the laser vessel seems like a good expansion on technology and is probably practical enough to work, even if we only get the one of them. Although I do worry that we will need to spend the revision getting the detection up to scratch. Still, nothing can be done about that, it is just a pessimism towards the rolls.

On the other hand, the scrambler would likely impress our new friend. Turning a mass catastrophe field from a mistake into a new field of technology would likely be valuable.

Also, to all the pessimists bemoaning our terrible condition. We have some nice technologies somewhat close to production, and overall we have more territories than the enemy. I am not entirely sure how we have do so well in battle... I can only blame my brilliant battle plans, but others may dispute my genius at their own peril. But still, our position is actually quite good. If we are just somewhat competent in our holding actions then all should be well in the long-term.
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Blood_Librarian

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #413 on: June 22, 2017, 08:59:19 am »

RAM has a point, and I figure he knows what he si doing so I am gonna vote with him.

Quote
0 "Last Resort" Missile Scrambler:
2 "Stand Off" Laser Vessel: RAM, Blood_Librarian
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 01:49:08 pm by Blood_Librarian »
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VoidSlayer

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #414 on: June 22, 2017, 09:58:43 am »

Okay slight redesign with "more efficient cooling systems" for the metallic hydrogen.  I figure we must have experience building massive high powered lasers after that Tokamak fusion generator fiasco.

"Stand Off" Laser Vessel

This redesign of the Interplanetary Transport Craft is built around a central laser cannon running the length of the ship.  This uses technology pioneered in the fusion generator and is made usable by our metallic hydrogen super conductors with more efficient cooling systems to cut down on space.  Powered by an array of folding solar panels and banks of batteries, it can fire a short burst of energy at light speed to extreme ranges.

Manned by a small five person crew to cut down on life support needs.  It uses the standard rocket of the ITC and reaction wheels for targeting the front of the laser cannon at the enemy.

It is also equipped with a sensor suite for targeting, using infrared, visual and radio telescopes.  It should be able to spot and destroy ships at far orbital ranges.

RAM

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #415 on: June 22, 2017, 03:02:45 pm »

I may have a point, both ideas have merit. It is really quite sad that our meth is so sad. We probably need to spend a revision stabilising it at some point.
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blueturtle1134

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #416 on: June 22, 2017, 09:16:21 pm »

Quote
space coolant loop
What does this mean?

I have no idea. Basically the problem with the superconductors is the size of the coolant systems, but space is pretty cold, so if use them outside the atmosphere we should be able to pretty easily make a smaller system to bring them close to absolute zero.  I am thinking something like what is used to cool water in a nuclear plant but using N2 as the heat transfer liquid.

Yes, space is cold, but there's no conducting medium so you need radiators. It'd work though. I vote for lazers.
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Supreme Commander Nutcase

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #417 on: June 23, 2017, 11:42:22 pm »

I heard we have problems detecting the Moerthi. Maybe we should build improved sensors or something. Anyway, if we don't get those, I'd go with the laser vessel.
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Design Phase 2212
« Reply #418 on: June 24, 2017, 12:46:39 am »

Design: "Stand Off"-Class Laser Vessel
4-1, 5-2+1, 4-1

The new Stand Off class Laser Vessel is the first of its kind.

Lasers have always been a weapon of the future. The militaries of Earth were even beginning some heavy experimentation and exploration into the possibility of in-atmosphere lasers for military uses. They were restricted by factors we're not.

The new HyMet Superconductor has been used extensively in this design to allow for the most powerful laser possible. Extensive capacitor banks built into the ship are immediately discharged through the superconductors to fire a large laser.
The extreme majority of the ship is capacitors. The laser actually takes up a relatively small portion of the vessel - we just need to power it. Most of the remaining parts of the ship hull are filled with cooling equipment for the superconductors making up the lasers. The crew inhabit a tiny portion of the ship - merely a bridge and multi-purpose crew quarters. Maintenance shafts go through the ship's machinery to allow for monitoring and repair of the vessel. The ship is manned by a crew of 6. One captain, four bridge crew, one general engineer. Field repair of the laser if damaged is unlikely, to say the least.
We tried to improve our cooling capabilities for the superconductors here, but ultimately failed. Luckily with the mass of the ship and lack of space given to anything else we can incorporate the cooling elements at least. The ship uses a combination of heat sinks and radiator panels to deal with the one-off heat generation of the laser's superconductors.

Damage to the laser is very likely and nearly impossible to repair mid-battle, due to the sheer amount of space the equipment takes up in the ship.

The problem with the Stand Off-class is power. It's powered by solar panels. Needless to say, this is not anywhere near enough power to charge a laser. That combined with the energy capacity of our capacitor banks means the vessel only has enough juice for a single shot. The solar panels are tasked with powering the non-weapon functions of the ship, while the capacitor banks are charged in orbit over Amaok. Perhaps with a significant leap in generator technology we can allow the ship to fire off multiple shots, but for now we're limited.

The laser's power is not to be questioned. It's quite short range, as light tends to scatter at distances reachable by other weapons. Right now we've deemed its range to be Medium Range. Roughly up to visual range.
Damage-wise, the laser can cut straight through another ship not explicitly equipped to deal with it, and can still do sizeable amounts of damage (we assume) if the enemy was to begin fielding armor designed against the laser. Provided the laser can target a ship and is in range, it can cut a hole through any portion of the ship.

When we devote so much space from the ITC hull to weaponry such as this, other aspects start to suffer. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately based on how you look at it) fuel suffers here.
The Stand Off-class has just enough fuel to maneuver to a planet and back to Amaok. There's some fuel for orbital maneuvering, but we had to allocate very little fuel towards rotational capabilities. Reaction wheels and the like mean targeting the laser is possible, but very slow and difficult. Ships with any kind of maneuvering capabilities at all should be able to perform evasive maneuvers, and vessels with higher amounts of agility should be able to completely avoid targeting.

The Stand Off-class utilizes basic active radar sensor equipment for targeting. Most of the targeting is human-based, but a small portion of it is automated. The radar isn't quite suited to be constantly scanning for foes, but when given a target it should do adequately for the purpose of tracking that target.


We have high hopes for the Stand Off-class and future laser-based weaponry, but it's not going to be easy. For now, the Stand Off class should be quite useful. Current enemy ships are quite sluggish and using this weapon to great effect should be possible. Central Command has expressed interest in the usage of a weapon like this for planetary bombardment. Miniaturizing it could be extremely useful as well.

"Stand Off"-Class Laser Vessel: An ITC-based ship with a skeleton crew of six (5 bridge crew, 1 engineer). The majority of the ship is dedicated to cooling equipment + capacitors + superconductors for a laser. Medium-Range laser can cut a hole clean through improperly armored ships. Active Medium-Range Radar is used exclusively for tracking a single target. Reaction wheels make targeting laser very slow and ineffective against faster ships. Powered by solar panels; requires recharging at Amaok between shots. Laser equipment is very easily/likely damaged and nearly impossible to field-repair.
Expense: 3x
Resources: Metal, Exotic


It is now the Revision Phase of 2212.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

VoidSlayer

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Re: Planetary Arms Race - Amaok, Revision Phase 2212
« Reply #419 on: June 24, 2017, 12:58:19 am »

Wait, expense 3x means we can make 3 of them?

Not everything I hoped for, by a long shot, but it is functional I guess.  We now have something an orbital fusion generator would be useful for.
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