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[Thunderclaw]

I've just gotten back into Dwarf Fortress, and after 4 days I'm almost done with my tutorial fort(s)* and am considering what to do for my first "proper" project. After some consideration I've decided I would quite like to embark on a glacier and build a glorious ice fort! I would have liked to just live in the ice, but after considering how to solve the alcohol issue without trading I've decided to segregate the fort into a noble upper (or "superior") fort that lives in the ice and hunts polar bears and a disgraced lower (or "inferior) fort that lives in the rock and farms plump helmets. I just have a few questions before I embark on this project:

1. Will my dwarves freeze to death in the ice layers? The wiki mentions they'll be screwed if they spend too much time "outside", but is that "outside" as defined by the game or "outside" as in "not nestled in the warm rock beneth the ice"?

2. Is there a mod somewhere (or that I could implement myself) that lets you use ice as stone for doors, furniture, mechanisms and all that stuff?

3. Could I make an airlock that allows me to safely dump dwarves and used barrels into the lower fort and lets the lower fort ferry booze (and maybe beds) upward, without risking any of the lower dwarves reaching the upper fort? I realise the simplest solution here is to just use burows, but that seems insufficiently dwarfy.


*The first one came to an ignoble end because the tutorial eschewed doors for stuffing the entryway with ~20 traps, which proved insufficient to stop a necromancer with ~30 zombies from just walking in and killing everyone

edit: whoops. this was supposed to go in the "Gameplay Questions" forum. But there's at least one modding question in there, so I guess you can just answer that one if you like?

[Rusty Shackleford]

They should be nice and toasty inside the ice fortress once it's built. They might lose a few fingers and toes working outside building it though.

My first instinct is to contain the lower-class scum with a retracting drawbridge that dumps them down a z-level into their proper warrens. They should mostly survive the fall and it'd be impossible for them to escape up the hatch.

[Thunderclaw]

They should be nice and toasty inside the ice fortress once it's built. They might lose a few fingers and toes working outside building it though.

Works for me!

My first instinct is to contain the lower-class scum with a retracting drawbridge that dumps them down a z-level into their proper warrens. They should mostly survive the fall and it'd be impossible for them to escape up the hatch.

Right, but then how do they send their production back up? I'm having a hard time thinking of a way that wouldn't let an (un)lucky dwarf slip through by accident. Best I can do is a bridge catapult or water elevator that would probably kill any dwarf stuck in the mechnism, but I would really lke to avoid "probably kill" in favor of "definitely keep out".

e:Ideally it would also be possible to automate, but I feel like I'm already asking for a lot

[Rusty Shackleford]

For sending stuff up to the surface I'd say a minecart system on powered rollers. Have it go through a long corridor and block it off with floodgates that only open with a pressure plate set for a heavy minecart. But somehow not for dwarves illegally riding on it. It comes back empty down a different track.

Hmm not sure how to keep dwarves from bypothetically riding the minecart up but surely there is a way.

[Thunderclaw]

Oh hey, the wiki has a laundry list of ways to make a track that can be passed by minecart, but not a dwarf. Among other things, they can apparently just phase though statues. Dunno if that'll stop a dwarf riding the cart, though.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Sweet, yeah I don't know much about minecarts since my usual fort is a 1×1 embark. I know dwarves will dodge into statues, but hop right back out but otherwise are blocked.

So I can't be sure if the statue would clothesline the dwarf off the cart and possibly kill them or they'd ride on through..

One idea, minecart triggers a pressure plate to a floodgate to open overhead, it dumps water over the moving minecart but since the cart and its items are heavy, it keeps going but the water flushes off any unauthorized riders back down into the lower section sewers.

I have no idea if that would work and the cart would fill with water so you'd need a method to drain it probably.

[Thunderclaw]

I did some testing, and while a dwarf can't guide a minecart through a statue, they'll happily ride through one.

Now, they won't actually get in the cart unless the route specifically calls for them to Ride it so this is at least a better at avoiding cross-contamination than just using burrows, but half the Fun of designing a one-way slum system is that I'm not supposed to be able to change my mind on a whim - or by accident.

Is there a way to get a dwarves to "stockpile" items in a deep hole without (D)umping those items? Or through grates/bars/fortifications that they themselves can't get through? If you can't then what you can do is set up a minecart stop designated to dump items into a hole. So for my purposes I could make a deep "basement" of the superior fort that goes below the inferior fort and then have the farmer dwarves just dump booze into the hole. I can even hve he cart go round in a little circle and dump to the side so that even if they somehow mnaged to get in the cart they wouldn't be able to get out into the hole.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Hmm.

You could design the minecart that brings goods to the superior fort so that it reaches extremely high speeds than derails and crashes into a wall at it's destination. So it would kill any riders, but still deliver goods. You'd just have to be careful that no superiors are around to get shotgunned by the crashing minecart. Probably not an ideal solution.

I want to say that dwarves will toss items through a locked hatch, but that's not perfect either.

For a filter, items will be pushed through fortifications if water pushes them, but so will dwarves. But most dwarves will drown. Could use a pressurized water system to send goods to the superiors. It would be always filled with water, but flipping a lever would open a floodgate and push goods dropped into the water down the hall and presumably to a drain with a grate that the superiors could grab any items sent.

You'd need a convoluted powered pumpstack and you'd only beable to send lightweight items. Also it'd kill your fps so long as it was running.

Your idea of dumping items down with some convoluted floodgate/drawbrige system would work easy, but dwarves can climb now, so even if it was a 10 z level drop, hypothetically (they would'nt) they could conceivably climb down the chute. Also it's sort of degrading for the superiors to climb down a bunch of stairs into the dirt when they should be hanging out in their awesome ice tower.

[Thunderclaw]

You could design the minecart that brings goods to the superior fort so that it reaches extremely high speeds than derails and crashes into a wall at it's destination. So it would kill any riders, but still deliver goods. You'd just have to be careful that no superiors are around to get shotgunned by the crashing minecart. Probably not an ideal solution.

I think it would be more convenient to just make it dump its contents and go right back into the system. It doesn't have to be into a hole or anything, you cold just make a loop around a wall and block it off with statues. That way any dwarf riding it would at best get a brief glimpse of the other side before being shunted back to the other side.

Your idea of dumping items down with some convoluted floodgate/drawbrige system would work easy, but dwarves can climb now, so even if it was a 10 z level drop, hypothetically (they would'nt) they could conceivably climb down the chute. Also it's sort of degrading for the superiors to climb down a bunch of stairs into the dirt when they should be hanging out in their awesome ice tower.

Not if I build it with an overhang, right? carve out 3x3 however many z-levels down, but only open the middle at the top so you get a [] sort of arrangement. It's not even particularly convoluted, except that I'd use minecart which, okay, is kind of gnarly in and of itself. But at least it'd be automatic! But i would indeed be kind of embarassing. Still, gotta be better than only having a statue or a few grates between the riff-raff and your prize War Polar Bear, right? Imagine how sick he'd get if he ate one of those.

[Rusty Shackleford]

You could design the minecart that brings goods to the superior fort so that it reaches extremely high speeds than derails and crashes into a wall at it's destination. So it would kill any riders, but still deliver goods. You'd just have to be careful that no superiors are around to get shotgunned by the crashing minecart. Probably not an ideal solution.

I think it would be more convenient to just make it dump its contents and go right back into the system. It doesn't have to be into a hole or anything, you cold just make a loop around a wall and block it off with statues. That way any dwarf riding it would at best get a brief glimpse of the other side before being shunted back to the other side.

Your idea of dumping items down with some convoluted floodgate/drawbrige system would work easy, but dwarves can climb now, so even if it was a 10 z level drop, hypothetically (they would'nt) they could conceivably climb down the chute. Also it's sort of degrading for the superiors to climb down a bunch of stairs into the dirt when they should be hanging out in their awesome ice tower.

Not if I build it with an overhang, right? carve out 3x3 however many z-levels down, but only open the middle at the top so you get a [] sort of arrangement. It's not even particularly convoluted, except that I'd use minecart which, okay, is kind of gnarly in and of itself. But at least it'd be automatic! But i would indeed be kind of embarassing. Still, gotta be better than only having a statue or a few grates between the riff-raff and your prize War Polar Bear, right? Imagine how sick he'd get if he ate one of those.

Ohhhhhh yeah, you're absolutely right about the over-hang, you could make it a 3x3 shaft and that'd stop that idea. Even better if the landing zone had upright spikes so not even very durable inferiors could survive. If a minecart scooped up the goods through a contained tunnel and brought them up to the surface, they'd be even better.

Thinking about your idea, though, I think the inferiors will end up with nicer abodes than the superiors. I think ice is is considered worthless for room value and whatever crappy rock the inferiors have will at least be engravable.

Unless that isn't the point or they have fantastic furnature. After all, the superiors are keeping the inferiors safe, they should have the best furniture, at least.

[Thunderclaw]

Ohhhhhh yeah, you're absolutely right about the over-hang, you could make it a 3x3 shaft and that'd stop that idea. Even better if the landing zone had upright spikes so not even very durable inferiors could survive. If a minecart scooped up the goods through a contained tunnel and brought them up to the surface, they'd be even better.

I think I'd have to drop the entire minecart down the shaft to do that, which would mean I'd have to get the carts back somehow. I'll probably just do the drop thing and pencil that in as a future upgrade.

Thinking about your idea, though, I think the inferiors will end up with nicer abodes than the superiors. I think ice is is considered worthless for room value and whatever crappy rock the inferiors have will at least be engravable.

You're assuming I would allow them to engrave it. They will live in rough-hewn caverns and sleep in crappy public dormitories and they'll like it.

I mean they won't actually like it, but that's just part of the fun.

Unless that isn't the point or they have fantastic furnature. After all, the superiors are keeping the inferiors safe, they should have the best furniture, at least.

It isn't, really. This is less of a nobles/servants deal and more of a spartans/helots kind of thing where the serfs exist primarily to enable the top-dwelling warriors to spend all their time doing Dwarfy Things like hunting bears, eating bears and being brutally murdered by bears.


Okay I'm almost done with the planning stages, except for one last thing. I really want my glorious ice fort to have glorious ice bridges, doors, statues and whatnot, but that's of course not allowed in vanilla and it turns out that because water/ice is hardcoded into the game, it would take quite a bit more effort than just putting an "[IS_STONE]" tag in the RAWs to mod it in. I am now debating whether I want to go to the effort of doing it properly or if I should just cheat and make it out of Microcline.

Or I guess just give up on it entirely and hope I can train marksdwarves and polar bears fast enough and hard enough that it'll be enough, but that seems a bit cocky.

[YetAnotherLurker]

It isn't, really. This is less of a nobles/servants deal and more of a spartans/helots kind of thing where the serfs exist primarily to enable the top-dwelling warriors to spend all their time doing Dwarfy Things like hunting bears, eating bears and being brutally murdered by bears.

It's really a shame Dwarf Fortress does not (yet?) support things like riding bears, at least for your own dwarves.

Okay I'm almost done with the planning stages, except for one last thing. I really want my glorious ice fort to have glorious ice bridges, doors, statues and whatnot, but that's of course not allowed in vanilla and it turns out that because water/ice is hardcoded into the game, it would take quite a bit more effort than just putting an "[IS_STONE]" tag in the RAWs to mod it in. I am now debating whether I want to go to the effort of doing it properly or if I should just cheat and make it out of Microcline.

Or I guess just give up on it entirely and hope I can train marksdwarves and polar bears fast enough and hard enough that it'll be enough, but that seems a bit cocky.

I'm pretty sure it's possible to build bridges out of raw ice already, though I believe unlike walls and floors, they're subject to melting if the temperature rises enough. Not sure about a simple way to make doors or statues out of ice though.

[Thunderclaw]

I'm pretty sure it's possible to build bridges out of raw ice already, though I believe unlike walls and floors, they're subject to melting if the temperature rises enough. Not sure about a simple way to make doors or statues out of ice though.

Well that's something at least, but it's kind of a moot point since you can't make mechanisms out of ice. I'd happily make my fortress a mechanical nightmare where bridges replace every door, but currently that still means I'd have to use stone and at that point I might as well just have the lower dwarves ferry microcline doors to the surface.