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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Sensei]

You lot may want to finish voting soon! Currently the Noose is in the lead and I'd like to roll before the weekend.

[Kashyyk]

UFAF-AGS-44 'Endless Vigil' [with research credit]: (1) Madman
UF-GAM-44 "Noose" [with research credit]: (5) Kot, Cnidaros, NAV, ConscriptFive, Kashyyk

I like the Endless Vigil but I think we need to preempt the Cannalan ASM first.

[andrea]

UF-(fill later) - Needlestorm mobile autocannon platform

The Needlestorm uses the same chassis as the Salamander with its armour and amphibious capabilities. The passenger and cargo space however is removed to make space for a sewing machine autocannon and its related sensors. The sensors is where the main focus of the design is: First of all we streamline the production of radar in order to more easily deploy (see, decomplex) it and to fit inside a Salamander sized space. In addition to that, some IR sensors copied from inspired by the ones on the Piracy warning missile are mounted on a rotating turret and tailored to trigger on the enemy IR lamps rather than on plane heat signatures. When a contact is detected, an alarm sounds and the targeting assist system aims the gun in that direction.

Fixing the sewing machine, giving it a good carriage, decomplexing the radar and having a way to counter enemy night vision, by denial of light.

[Kot]

Sure, but this doesn't make the gunships less useful, it just means that they need support, just like any situation where you used CAS in more conventional wars such as WW2 or the Korean war. It doesn't diminish the utility of a gunship.

I am not denying that a gunship can't be useful, it just won't be useful against Cannalans in their current state. Ironically enough, it'd have much better go at it after we make the SAM. Also, gunship require way more support than regular CAS, considering that they're spending a lot of time over the enemy, rather than dropping the payload and retreating to relative safety. Gunships kill people, but they aren't a design that I can see being effective in our case, and honestly, I can't see it being effective most of the time during an Arms Race, because they're very easily countered.

Helicopters also orbit in the exact same way because it's safer than flying directly over the target,

Yeah, no. Helicopters sure show their side, or at least should, but helicopters also operate on lower altitudes and (should be, Cannalans are just... special) are more agile. Not to mention that if we're talking about helicopter gunships the entire doctrine pretty much calls for fast and quick attacks and then retreating behind the safety of cover, since you can actually hide a helicopter beind a hill, not to mention the same thing as with CAS kind of applies - attack helicopters have most of their weaponry mounted at the front, and so they face the enemy when they're attacking and then break off. Fixed-wing gunships just float in the air over the target on very predictable trajectory, and while they could change that trajectory, it is at cost of losing the ability to shoot pretty much.

it's really hard to hit an aircraft that is constantly changing it's direction by moving in a circle,

...what? If it's moving in a circle it's not constantly changing direction, it's moving essentially in a straight line, except it doesn't really change it's distance from the middle of said circle, and... I don't even know how to begin explaining that because that would require you to understand basic concepts as leading the target, "walking" into fire, and just fucking basic ballistic pretty much.

and to anything that's in its killzone it's moving left to right

Which it can't do because it has guns only on one side, unless ours doesn't, but then it'd be very fucking hard to fit TWO tank cannons, and whatever additional weaponry. There's probably just not enough space for that, especially considering that tank cannon is gonna need some serious fucking dampening.

which is a very favorable condition (aircraft get shot down when they're hovering or they're flying straight towards something that's firing at them which is why attacking ships on water in WW2 was so dangerous).

Attacking ships was dangerous as fuck but LITERALLY FLYING TOWARDS THE ENEMY ANTI-AIRCRAFT is one of safest ways to approach one, since it's probably the approach that gives you the most possibilities to dodge. There's a reason why they did it this way. I'm not even going to comment on hovering.

And yet we have examples of gunships doing exactly that and surviving, usually because their mission was considered so important and their contribution so valuable that casualties were acceptable, and because gunship crews are expecting to be shot at while they're performing a pylon turn and train to exit that maneuver in the safest way possible when things do get too dangerous. The fact that an aircraft has been shot down before by AAA isn't proof that it's not a useful or survivable platform, not only do you have to show that an orbiting aircraft is more likely to be shot down than a strafing aircraft, you also need to show that this supposed loss in survivability outweighs it's effectiveness as CAS.

Like a dozen AC-130s arrived in Vietnam. Six were lost. Three to 37mm cannons, one to 57mm cannon, one to a Strela and one to a SAM missile. Of course they were replaced with the war, but I again remind you that Vietnamese anti-air capabilities were not enough for a conventional war. Fixed wing gunships are anti-insurgency weapon, and this isin't a fucking insurgency, it's a war.

Based on one incident which you haven't formally cited you argue that unguided 37mm cannons frequently shot down fixed wing gunships,

Google is your friend.

based on one incident I show evidence that a gunship can survive being targeted by radar-guided AAA, yet in your example the outcome was inevitable and in my example the gunship was lucky. Why?

I honestly don't even know how to argue anymore, if you reject evidence and common sense I am not going to win it, so whatever. Can't use my own tricks on me. :I

E: More about friendly fire:
All our aircraft have radios already, if friendly fire does become an issue then you just install IFF transponders. It's just a radio code that the radio is constantly spitting out and SAM sites will interrogate the target before engaging. Easy solution.

This is what I considered, the problem is I am not sure if we can just make IFF transponders in the same design, and Cannalans might just fucking copy them and put them on their own planes. Might be worth adding them.

UFAF-AGS-44 'Endless Vigil' [with research credit]: (1) Madman
UF-GAM-44 "Noose" [with research credit]: (5) Kot, Cnidaros, NAV, ConscriptFive, Kashyyk, eS

[Light forger]

UFAF-AGS-44 'Endless Vigil' [with research credit]: (1) Madman
UF-GAM-44 "Noose" [with research credit]: (7) Kot, Cnidaros, NAV, ConscriptFive, Powder Miner, eS, Lightforger

[Parsely]

Yeah, no. Helicopters sure show their side, or at least should, but helicopters also operate on lower altitudes and (should be, Cannalans are just... special) are more agile. Not to mention that if we're talking about helicopter gunships the entire doctrine pretty much calls for fast and quick attacks and then retreating behind the safety of cover, since you can actually hide a helicopter beind a hill, not to mention the same thing as with CAS kind of applies - attack helicopters have most of their weaponry mounted at the front, and so they face the enemy when they're attacking and then break off. Fixed-wing gunships just float in the air over the target on very predictable trajectory, and while they could change that trajectory, it is at cost of losing the ability to shoot pretty much.

...what? If it's moving in a circle it's not constantly changing direction, it's moving essentially in a straight line, except it doesn't really change it's distance from the middle of said circle, and... I don't even know how to begin explaining that because that would require you to understand basic concepts as leading the target, "walking" into fire, and just fucking basic ballistic pretty much.

Helicopter gunships have door guns and other helos, such as the Cobra, have guns that can traverse to the left and right partly so you can do this maneuver, because it lets you avoid flying directly towards the target which is dangerous if the target is shooting back because you aren't moving relative to them, which makes you an easy target when you're flying low and slow.

A straight line is a vector with a constant direction, a circle can't exist without changing direction, and in order to make a complete circle you have to be changing direction the entire time (turning). If you're flying in a circle around your enemy he has to be tracking you the entire time which complicates shooting you. I guess what you're saying is, from the anti-air attacker's perspective the plane is flying in a straight line? That's what it looks like from far away but if you look at it from above it's a complex movement that's actually happening.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

and to anything that's in its killzone it's moving left to right

Which it can't do because it has guns only on one side, unless ours doesn't, but then it'd be very fucking hard to fit TWO tank cannons, and whatever additional weaponry. There's probably just not enough space for that, especially considering that tank cannon is gonna need some serious fucking dampening.

I don't think you understood what I was saying, I was saying that to someone on the ground who is being orbited by an AC-130 it's flying left to right (because the AC-130's guns are on the right side), which is an advantage compared to flying directly at the target to use forward facing guns, because you're moving more relative to them when orbiting, which makes you harder to hit because the target needs to make more adjustments.

[Madman198237]

So, Kot, flying straight at the enemy does not give you chances to dodge. It gives you chances to die, though, because it gives the enemy a target that is moving along a single line, meaning you only need to correct for the changing range instead of the changing range, elevation, and/or sideways motions. Dive-bombing was very, very hard if the enemy was on his game, because you're basically sitting still in the air above them, as far as the gunner(s) is(are) concerned.

Anyways, it does look like we're getting the AAM, hopefully Sensei will comment on the difficulty/need for ---wait nevermind our roll is officially a 6.

[Kot]

Helicopter gunships have door guns

And those are not meant to attack enemies with significant anti-air presence. Fuck, they get shot down by unguided rockets fine.

and other helos, such as the Cobra, have guns that can traverse to the left and right partly so you can do this maneuver, because it lets you avoid flying directly towards the target which is dangerous if the target is shooting back because you aren't moving relative to them,

Which is why you move relative to them, for fucks sake. A plane, or even better, a helicopter can still move sideways and up and down, throwing off the AA aim. Going literally in a straight line is not something anyone with a fucking brain will do.

which makes you an easy target when you're flying low and slow.

Not as much as going high and slow and in a circle.

A straight line is a vector with a constant direction, a circle can't exist without changing direction, and in order to make a complete circle you have to be changing direction the entire time (turning). If you're flying in a circle around your enemy he has to be tracking you the entire time which complicates shooting you. I guess what you're saying is, from the anti-air attacker's perspective the plane is flying in a straight line? That's what it looks like from far away but if you look at it from above it's a complex movement that's actually happening.

It doesn't fucking matter how it looks from above or from perspective of the pilots, it matters how it looks from the perspective of enemy gunners. The gunners can be inside the circle or outside it, but in any case a circling plane is maintaining a relatively constant speed and turn, which makes it extremly easy to track it and account for.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Nobody in his sane mind is going to go in a straight fucking line against an AA position. This example is just a simple roll, which isin't even the most optimal way of approaching this, but still. The plane is approaching fast and to a gun on the ground it's basically trying to hit a 2D target that moves around, except he has to predict where the target is going to be in few seconds or so, and if he fails he's gonna get fucking shredded once it gets close enough and speed at which he is capable of moving the turret is no longer sufficent. Shooting at a circling aicraft lets the gunner mantain approximately the same leading, so all he has to do is turn his gun with the enemy plane. You can argue that the cricling aircraft can also perform evasive maneuvers, but it really can't, since it's accuracy is DEPENDENT on the circling. Even if it just suddenly starts going straight, it's still going to fuck up the aim significantly.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You realize the accuracy of a gunship RELIES on the target being relatively inside the circle, at least without very advanced fire control systems which we don't have and I honestly doubt could achieve. I'm honestly tired of this argument because you clearly have no fucking idea about shooting an airplane out of the sky. Just go play a game where you can do that, at very least, so you realize how it works.

I don't think you understood what I was saying, I was saying that to someone on the ground who is being orbited by an AC-130 it's flying left to right (because the AC-130's guns are on the right side), which is an advantage compared to flying directly at the target to use forward facing guns, because you're moving more relative to them when orbiting, which makes you harder to hit because the target needs to make more adjustments.

It's really not.

So, Kot, flying straight at the enemy does not give you chances to dodge.

You absolutely do not need to stay still until you start firing the guns or w/e. Just do a fucking barrel roll, and you're already fucking up enemy aim way more than you'd be by circling him.

It gives you chances to die, though,

Well, yes, because it's dangerous, but it's still not batshit retarded.

Dive-bombing was very, very hard if the enemy was on his game, because you're basically sitting still in the air above them, as far as the gunner(s) is(are) concerned.

You have absolutely no fucking idea how to dive bomb then. Setting aside the period during which the plane is on the approach, during which it should be doing evasive maneuvers anyway, during the dive the plane is essentially fucking with any non-advanced AA system because it requires VERY fucking advanced maneuvers (he has to point his gun directly upwards, rotate the gun 180 degrees, start aiming down, but by that time the bomb is loose and he's dead) from the gunner, and most of them won't be able to do that, and even guided AA such as Shilka is limited by rotation speed.

[Toady One]

(no idea what's going on in here, but there's been a report and if people simmer down a bit that would be cool)

[Sensei]

I would like to have it known to anyone who's new here that these arguments are typical procedure here and you really ought not to get mad and report them. My apologies for toady for having try to read that longpost.

UF-GAM-44 "Noose" is a liquid-fueled (which should be easy, just use kerosene mixed with oxidizer, maybe this or in worst case liquid oxygen), solid-fuel boosted surface-based anti-air missile that is designed to clear the skies from any and all Cannalan aircraft, and also designed to work against any Cannalan tries to copy our "Saltseeker" design.

The missile needs an accurate, decomplexified and hopefully cheap (maybe also better than existing one, but we're not picky) radar system which it will use to guide onto enemy air targets, not-dissimilar to how the "Piracy Warning" and "Saltseeker" guide onto theirs. The missile either can be fired without specific target in mind, picking it's own based on what's closest or it can be locked onto a specific target with help of ground radar, which will help with friendly fire incidents. The missile detonates on proximity to only it's selected target, not unlike how Saltseeker detects proximity to it's, which should be somewhat more reliable and resilent to jamming than the original Cannalan proximity fuze. The missile should include a sizeable amount of explosive that is surrounded by metal rods welded together in alternating pattern. The missile is sent into air with solid fuel boosters to give it high initial speed, and then engage it's main engine. The main engine is a liquid-fueled rocket, instead of a jet engine, to ensure very high speeds. The whole thing is a lot larger than "Piracy Warning", being nearly twice the length of a "Saltseeker", but very slim. The missile is designed to be mounted on Artemis trucks (which will probably make it stick out a little), ships and on static emplacements.

Note that remember anything which distinguishes a radar signature as "your" target, unless hard-coded (EG by size and even that's difficult) is impossible to achieve without some kind of digital memory and computing. Since this would be a huge undertaking, I'll assume it keeps trying to follow whatever is in the center of its field of view or closest to the center of its field of view, as all the other Archipelago homing missiles do, which is probably the best you can hope for.

Very Hard: 6, 3
UF-GAM-44 "Noose": The Noose is an active radar homing surface-to-air missile. It has a long, slim shape, with a diameter of 32cm and a length of 5.5 meters. as the motor comprises the great majority of the missile's overall mass, with a seeker in the nose, guidance fins close to the front and rear stabilizer fins, which is quickly becoming the "standard" guided missile configuration in the Archipelago and the world. It fires from a truck bed on a four-mount which includes a radar display which shows what the next missile ready to fire is looking at, so the operator can tell which target it will follow when launched. Crucially, this can be coordinated with a Deadliest Ray radar to identify the exact angle the missile should be pointed in, which is no longer [complex] thanks to the work on this project. The missile can, impressively given its size, lock on to a target and reach it at a maximum range of 30km, to which it is propelled by a first solid booster stage and a second oxidized-kerosene liquid booster stage, at around mach 1.7 close to the end of its flight. It uses its radar as a proximity fuze, detonating when it is a meter from the target or if the target reaches the edge of the missiles view and is within 10 meters. The explosive is cylindrical, and surrounded by metal rods, which are welded together in an alternating pattern to from a "ring" of somewhat thick metal rod around the perimeter of the missile, hopefully damaging aircraft even off to its side. It is the single greatest leap forward for radar in Forenian history. [4 Ore, 5 Oil]

[Kot]

"Garlic" is essentially an infrared image converter tube similar to those "Cannalans" use with their Aswang night vision, and related to the infrared sensors we are using in missiles. Unlike Cannalan design however, ours doesn't include active lamps that illuminate the battlefield in infrared, which would mean that they're essentially useless, except, we are counting on Cannalans doing it for us - "Garlic" will enable our soldiers to see enemy sources of infrared light, while remaining relatively unseen themselves. This will enable us to kill Cannalan night vision users, or at least force them to stop using their night vision, at a fraction of cost of a full night vision device.

The "Garlic" should come as a scope that fits the old mounts, including the vehicle ones, and a set of binoculars that are essentially two scopes bolted together. The power for the converter is supplied by a small battery pack that can be worn in one of our many pockets.

Or an alternative similar to what Andrea proposed:

Garlic is a revision of the Sewing Machine, and accomplishes few things. First off, it takes the now decomplexified (plane-sized small, if neccessary) radar and shoves it into THE REAR CARGO SPACE OF Salamander, and then puts an Sewing Machine turret in the place of Salamander's one, linking the two, and possibly having a front and side armour plate to allow the gun to be used more effectively against ground targets. Aditionally, an pptional IR sensor similar to the one found on the missiles is also added to the turret, and looks for strong sources of IR radiation, such as enemy night vision lamps. When one is spotted, alert is sounded in the cabin, and the gun is aimed towards the source, in a manner very similar to how the guidance on the missiles work - if the target is off on X axis, it rotates the turret, if it's off on Y axis, it elevates the gun accordingy. After the gun is aimed, the gunner can decide wether to shoot or not. Essentially, if he doesn't see any sources of visible light, it means shoot, because he's probably looking at a source of invisible infrared radiation, which is most commonly found as Cannalan infrared spotlights. Of course, the sensor can be turned off, so it doesn't aim onto the sun at day or take over the gun controls when the gunner doesn't want it to. A version of this system (sans the IR even, just the gun and the radar) should be put on the ships, to aid in their AA capabilities (SENSEI PLEASE NOTICE OUR SHIPS).

[Kashyyk]

(1) UF-NVD-44 "Garlic": Kashyyk

[evictedSaint]

UF-AAM-44 "Mach Break"

Essentially an upgraded Piracy Warning, the United Forenian Air-to-Air Missile "Mach Break" is designed to compete with enemy Balefire missiles with regards to speed, range, and acquisition.

The IR sensors are replaced with a smaller version of our own in-house Active Radar Homing guidance, borrowed from the Saltseeker and Noose.  The warhead mimics the welded-rail explosive from the Noose, and the engine makes use of our superior rocket technology rather than continuing to copy Cannala's earlier mediocrity.

In short, the Mach Break is a Piracy Warning with all the relevant components swapped out for our superior equipment.

If possible, a small buzzer is wired to the cockpit to alert the pilot when one of the missiles detects a target in front of it as a primitive "lock on" message.

This would let us compete with their missile-carrier plane from last turn, assuming they upgraded it.  Might be too hard to do, though.

UFAF-RF-44 "VV Frightening ME"

The United Forenian Air Force Radar Fighter "Very Very Frightening Master Edition" is our third attempt to improve the engines and oil economy of the VVF.  While Professor Wolfram's sudden but inevitable betrayal was certainly disappointing, closer analysis of his work shows that he was actually able to perfect the VVF's engines, but simply changed the size and orientation of a few components.

The Very Very Frightening ME is able to maintain its performance while reducing oil requirements.  Afterburners are still standard and the engines do not flame out at all - not even in foggy weather.  Indeed, the only thing preventing the plane from breaking the sound barrier at this point is structural viability.

In order to show there are no hard feelings, a second PAROI gift basket is mailed to Professor Wolfram's home.

Or we could finally knock this out.  Make all our Radar Fighters Expensive without any flame-outs.

UF-RTS-44 "Spotlight"
Our third (or fourth, counting the Sewing Machine) attempt at radar gun-laying, the United Forenian Radar Targeting System "Spotlight" is a functional version of the Long Shot and can be swapped onto the firing controls for our ships, our Overcompensators, and our Sewing Machine. 

The Spotlight makes use of our decomplexed radar to display targets, as well as doing basic ballistics computations to account for a variety of factors.  Unlike our last two/three attempts, the system actually works.

Or we could do this. 

[Kot]

I think even more designs that help in air are kind of redundant for now. At this point I'd argue even the gunship is better idea than VVFME or Mach Break.

[andrea]

I don't think we need to double down on the air, we already got a great SAM.
But we have high chances of fighting in the jungle, we need to do something about night vision.

The NVD seems like it might be complex: the image converter tube is the bulk of the ASWANG, and they spent, how much? 2 designs? a design and a couple revisions? on it. We would be basically doing a full reverse engineering, and that is liable to make it very hard, complex and sub par.

The SPAAS just cobbles together stuff we already have: Salamander chassis, sewing machine and its radar, the IR sensors from the Piracy warning which we may not udnerstand well, but we can surely produce.

It will help bringing our quad autocannon around effectively, will be simple, and it will shoot down their lamps making them blind.

(1) UF-NVD-44 "Garlic": Kashyyk
(1) UF-SPAAS-44-2 "Garlic": Andrea