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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

I've said it before: if that is true, we're fucked either way, so we might as well act under the assumption that it isn't.
See also my previous statement re:pessimism.

Realism =/= Pessimism.

But anyway, have some optimistic realism.

Note to all our Cruiser design Teams. Include Manganese Steel for an automatic +1 to armor bonus. This should easily get us 50 mm of armor equivalent extra.

alloys like manganese steel, composites or more exotic armors may be +1 or higher with various effects on the weight and cost.

Problem, that amount may likely cost multiple pieces of Manganese Steel, and we probably want to keep the total cost in the [Expensive] range.  Given we are building around the size of the 6 Ore, 4 Oil Khorne (and that cost is the limit to our [Expensive] cost level), messing with Manganese may be a bit dangerous.

[piratejoe]

Even more positive realism. A heavy bomber shouldn't be hard to make seeing we have experience with bigmclargehuge aircraft.

[10ebbor10]

Problem, that amount may likely cost multiple pieces of Manganese Steel, and we probably want to keep the total cost in the [Expensive] range.  Given we are building around the size of the 6 Ore, 4 Oil Khorne (and that cost is the limit to our [Expensive] cost level), messing with Manganese may be a bit dangerous.

The Manganese replaces Ore in equal measure, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[Madman198237]

I mean, I can?

The whole point of the Cataphract is to be entirely reasonable while still being the best we can possibly produce. It will outgun their Khornes due to extra range, and can take hits from the Khorne. It goes fast enough to hold the range, which means its screen of Archers won't be sunk by cruiser and battlecruiser gunfire. Everything about that design is purposefully made to counteract their present gunfighting advantages. Basically, we make the Cataphract and suddenly we can disable every one of their big-gun ships save the Victoria, which then becomes a sitting duck for aircraft. And we do it all by having longer ranges than their ships, while still having the speed and armor to compete if necessary.

[NUKE9.13]

The Manganese replaces Ore in equal measure, so it shouldn't be a problem.

No it doesn't. Did you not see the saltstorm about that? It absolutely, definitely does not, and Sensei isn't changing that.

[Madman198237]

Yeah. Not a good idea to use alloys.

Basically, if RHA is good enough for the world's leading navies, it's good enough for us. Also, like I said, the Cataphract should be right at the edge of reasonable, while still being better than everything the Cannalans have.

[10ebbor10]

I still think we shouldn't ignore the resources we have.

Manganese steel is better than non-Manganese. We can simply use thinner armor if you fear the cost is too great. Or use it only as faceplating for the citadel or something.

[NUKE9.13]

Also, like I said, the Cataphract should be right at the edge of reasonable, while still being better than everything the Cannalans have.

I don't see a major difference between it and the Winged Hussar.

[Azzuro]

Even more positive realism. A heavy bomber shouldn't be hard to make seeing we have experience with bigmclargehuge aircraft.

For those who missed it, the 100% unanimous plan hashed out on Discord is to make a massive flying wing bomber, give it to Germany and Hail Hydra in the hopes of getting an espionage credit. Everyone smart agrees with this plan, if you vote against it you will lose. [/s]


More seriously, I don't think a cruiser will win us back the Jungle, which should be our absolute first priority at this stage. They have already landed, reducing their naval advantage will not help us on solid ground, doubly so as naval advantage doesn't affect troop numbers in the top lane. There is the argument that this will help us against their naval gunfire when we push back to the Jungle coast, but then better attack aircraft would also do the same and play to our bonus.

I am not against ship designs on principle, but I feel that we should really really focus on getting back the Jungle first before going on a naval designing spree. Getting back that ore will give us the long awaited dream of Cheap Thunderbirds and Expensive Z carriers, which unfortunately wasn't realised due to the unfortunate 1 and will also help redress the cheaper Cannalan Santos carrier in the naval arena.

The Turbohaast pushes them back in the Jungle, while also laying the groundwork for a more advanced jet fighter in the future through its turbofan engine technology, addressing the short endurance issue of the Thunderbird.

On another note, I believe the Cannalans will definitely spend their design not on a ship, but on a ground/air design to help them push another bit of Jungle. Of which, I think the most reasonable option for them is a newer jet fighter (yes, I see you rolling your eyes already). But they already have the (small) armour advantage, so taking the air advantage is the next logical step, and depriving us of Haast, Firecracker bombing, paratrooper insertion etc is by far the most effective use of a single design, given how much we rely on various forms of air attack to complement our ground. Moreover, the Cannalans now have a Research Credit, perfect to put to use designing a more advanced jet with the luxury of getting a 5 or 6. Voting for the Turbohaast again sets us up to counter that by making a more advanced jet fighter next turn.

[NUKE9.13]

Hmm. You may have a point. Letting them gain more ground in the jungle would set our plans back considerably.
...I mean, we're pretty much guaranteed to lose Mt.Konstantin that way. But... maybe.
...gonna think about it, at least.

[10ebbor10]

We could make a new Tank with our Reactive armor, should help in Jungle and on Mount Constantin.

[Madman198237]

So, analyzing the five cruisers that have been proposed so far:

The Cavalier is trying to be a torpedo boat. Trying too hard. Trying to make new torpedoes AND a new vessel of a class we've never touched before while ALSO making better armor and a new gun (Downsized 300mm) is ASKING for too much difficulty for too little reward. It's going to be too slow to do a cruiser's job, and it's going to get shot to pieces by the Victorias.

The Knight has too many turrets. Not only will it look absurd, but it also will be far too long. Real-world nations ran into the same problems when trying to use more turrets rather than bigger turrets. Longer hulls cause problems.

The Paladin has the same problem, although it also tries to carry rockets. Which, by the way, would possibly limit the stern firing arcs of the main guns. Not to mention, there are better ways to produce a smokescreen than by peppering the ocean with rockets.

The two most recent classes are the Winged Hussar and Cataphract classes.

The Cataphract is meant to be a  dueling ship, shooting down Khornes and every other Cannalan vessel from outside their range. When necessary, it can close to range as, just like its namesake, it is well-protected protected from 6-inch shells, immune to them from medium range to their maximum range. It has three triple 6-inch turrets, giving it excellent firepower, especially as our rocket shells let us stay out of the range of equivalent Cannalan weaponry. The turrets are well-armored as well, and magazines have anti-fire precautions. Also, the ship is built to last in a fight, specifically having a good pumping system to keep flooding down. It will keep fighting until the ship is literally Swiss cheese. And it might still get off another salvo. The ship is also built to have high speed, so it can dictate the range at which a fight occurs. This prevents the Cannalans from being able to just suicide-run to close range. Also, it uses director-firing to gain extreme bonuses to accuracy.

The Winged Hussar trades the torpedo belt, some of the armor, and the speed for an extra triple 150mm turret, mentions none of the special extras like pumping measures or floodable magazines, but does have director-firing systems.

Not to mention, every innovation in the Cataphract and Winged Hussar designs is better than what we use, yet still WWI-era, so it's all pretty much easy at this point.

[Taricus]

0 RDN-39-3 "DEADLIEST RAY" :
0 UFA-SAB-41 Speedy Altitude Bomber :
0 UFN-AIPS-41 Submarine :
0 UFSS-41-A "Siren" :
1 UFAF-A41 "Turbohaast" : Azzuro
0 UF-GEV-41 "Ekaterina" :
3 UFS-CL-41 Pattern A 'Cavalier' Cruiser : Kashyyk, Wolfhunter, Taricus
1 UFS-CL-41 Pattern B 'Knight' Cruiser : 10ebbor10
0 UFS-CL-41 Pattern C 'Paladin' Cruiser :
3 UFS-CL-41 Pattern D 'Winged Hussar' Cruiser : Zanzetkuken the Great, Piratejoe, NUKE9.13
1 UFN-CL-41 Pattern E 'Cataphract' Cruiser : Madman198237

Fixed the armour error in the Cavalier. Shouldn't be in feet now (Fucking imperial measurements...)

@Madman downsizing guns IS easy, and we do have word of sensei for this. More to the point the carriers are meant to be dealing with the Victorias; the cruiser is for the rest of them.

[Madman198237]

I know, but it IS still an aspect of the design. Cruisers should not be launching torpedoes. We will fix the Archer with this revision, if possible. And if not, new destroyer, near future.

We need a gunfighter, and the Cataphract or Winged Hussar are the way to go. For obvious reasons, I prefer the Cataphract. I tailored it to what I saw as our particular needs. We need speed, to avoid their superior numbers, we need armor, and just enough gunpower to kill them. This gives all of those. Not to mention, it has, undoubtedly, the best name.
Thanks to Zanzetkuken, from whom I stole the name option.

[Taricus]

A gunfighter does not fit into our carrier based doctrine nor do those ships happen to be as effective against the smaller cannalan cruisers and destroyers. We NEED screens for the capital ships no matter what we want; a capital ship without effective screens gets sucks, which is what's happening to our fleet at the moment.

The victoria class isn't the problem, it's the mass of smaller ships that are.