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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Taricus]

AFAIK Sensei hasn't really dictated a limit for the gun downsizing, so we should definitely be fine. And a heavy cruiser isn't particularly viable; they'd be capital ships themselves rather than escorts.

@ES: Maybe we should've gone full-in with the nazis? Just saying. But that being said you honestly thought that a war with significant amounts of water involved would not require a navy?

[Devastator]

We just couldn't predict that GM would deviate from his written rules, and suddenly introduce a new tier of naval domination for the Cannalan's to screw us over with. Kind of unfair really.

Didn't I suggest that specific thing may happen, and you dismissed it as impossible?  Clearly it was possible to anticipate this unthinkable event.

It's not an insurmountable naval advantage.  Maybe 'massive' only happens when one side has say three times as much naval advantage as the other, so them maintaining a lead is possible, but maintaining a 'massive' advantage is only possible by completely ignoring a navy.

[evictedSaint]

@ES: Maybe we should've gone full-in with the nazis? Just saying. But that being said you honestly thought that a war with significant amounts of water involved would not require a navy?

No, Taricus, I didn't think we'd be penalized for doing an arms race that had nothing to do with the navy and that went eight design phases shorter than Cannalas, no.

[10ebbor10]

Yeah, the not going full nazi thing us slightly irrelevant. It cost us only 1 research credit.

Meanwhile, Canalla got 1 extra spy credit, 1 extra production credit, and 1 extra research credit. IIRC.

[NUKE9.13]

I am honestly pretty dissappointed that it's required to absolutely control the ocean to win.  That's another advantage for Cannala, and it's entirely possible for them to out-right win now.  All they have to do is focus on their navy and maintain the lead, which they can do with their superior naval design bonus.  I...honestly don't see any path to victory, it's like we're playing an interstellar arms race againt fucking aliens with flying saucers, and our starting ship was the god damn Challenger.  How can we possibly catch up, especially when they have better everything and get 2 credits for every 1 we get?

This pessimistic view would be accurate if a Massive Naval Advantage merely requires Cannala to maintain +10 Navy, or whatever. If that is the case, then yes, we can go back and forth designing +1 ships and never change things. But I suspect that in fact it is more of a ratio thing- that their navy has to be 3x ours, or whatever, in which case +1 from us would require +3 from them (or something like that).

[andrea]

we defeated their first massive advantage with the archer.  Massive is not easy to keep.

[10ebbor10]

Anyway, on the massive naval advantage :


Turn 1

Fortunately for Forenia, the harbor closest to the mainland is such a short distance from home that they can reliably move their troops without Cannalan naval interference.

Unlike the in the north, Cannalans have some opportunity to intercept Forenian ships, so their forces outnumber the Forenians here.

Current Turn

Cannala begins their shore assault having totally pushed away the Forenian navy

Forenia's naval forces are just far too few in number to make a foothold, after repeated attacks by Cannalan forces at sea.

Much like the assault on the plains, Forenia doesn't stand a chance.

Ultimately, Cannala's overwhelming naval advantage makes a victory here inevitable as Forenians are blockaded from their supply lines, only sporadically receiving ammunition and reinforcements. Shore bombardment can access a large portion of the island. I

It's clear that Naval Dominance in turn 1 is not the same as the naval dominance in the current turn. Hence, you can't say that it happened before.Before, naval dominance was identical to major naval advantage, differing only in fluff.

Didn't I suggest that specific thing may happen, and you dismissed it as impossible?  Clearly it was possible to anticipate this unthinkable event.

I dismissed it as impossible based on the rules. Normally, rules hold precedent over reality. It's why, for example, Canalla can not use their navy to bypass all our islands, and why we can't simply bomb El Presidente.

This time, the GM decided to deviate from the rules and go with reality, which is contrary to all expectations.

[Kot]

I dismissed it as impossible based on the rules. Normally, rules hold precedent over reality. It's why, for example, Canalla can not use their navy to bypass all our islands, and why we can't simply bomb El Presidente.

Let's bomb El Presidente.

[Devastator]

I dismissed it as impossible based on the rules. Normally, rules hold precedent over reality. It's why, for example, Canalla can not use their navy to bypass all our islands, and why we can't simply bomb El Presidente.

This time, the GM decided to deviate from the rules and go with reality, which is contrary to all expectations.

There is another alternative.. that you were wrong about something, in a game with hidden information.

[10ebbor10]

I am honestly pretty dissappointed that it's required to absolutely control the ocean to win.  That's another advantage for Cannala, and it's entirely possible for them to out-right win now.  All they have to do is focus on their navy and maintain the lead, which they can do with their superior naval design bonus.  I...honestly don't see any path to victory, it's like we're playing an interstellar arms race againt fucking aliens with flying saucers, and our starting ship was the god damn Challenger.  How can we possibly catch up, especially when they have better everything and get 2 credits for every 1 we get?

This pessimistic view would be accurate if a Massive Naval Advantage merely requires Cannala to maintain +10 Navy, or whatever. If that is the case, then yes, we can go back and forth designing +1 ships and never change things. But I suspect that in fact it is more of a ratio thing- that their navy has to be 3x ours, or whatever, in which case +1 from us would require +3 from them (or something like that).

We can look at the turns and relative effort expended.

US :
1 Design : Destroyer  Rolled 3
1 Design : Carrier  Rolled 6
1 Design : Carrier Rolled 5
1 Revision : Torpedo Rolled 6


Canalla
1 Design : Carrier   Rolled 1
1 Revision : Carrier Rolled ??
1 Revision : Carrier  Rolled ??
1 Design : Battleship Rolled ??

We did more, rolled above average, and now we're just as bad off as before.

[10ebbor10]

There is another alternative.. that you were wrong about something, in a game with hidden information.

Didn't I already say that?

I was wrong about the GM following the rules as written in the OP.  You can look, you won't find a naval dominance in there anywhere.

[evictedSaint]

Ebbor, you didn't mention that they rolled a 1 on their carrier.

I dismissed it as impossible based on the rules. Normally, rules hold precedent over reality. It's why, for example, Canalla can not use their navy to bypass all our islands, and why we can't simply bomb El Presidente.

Let's bomb El Presidente.

Seconded.

Bomb el Presidente: Kot, evictedSaint

[Devastator]

There is another alternative.. that you were wrong about something, in a game with hidden information.

Didn't I already say that?

You said that the GM was wrong, that your fellow players were wrong, etcetera.

But you never said that you were wrong, and now you're claiming that you are still right, it's someone else's fault.  Now can you get over yourself and adjust to the new situation?

Specifically, you said that the massive advantage was only done turn one because you had no navy, and then made the assumption that was no longer possible as long as you had any navy at all.  That is the assumption that was wrong.

[Khan Boyzitbig]

Why not bomb their dockyards? They are unlikely to surrender if we kill el Presidente however without the ability to make ships because we flatten them as they lie unfinished in harbour it would cripple Cannalan morale far more, what are pirates without boats afterall?

[Taricus]

Requires us to be able to reach cannala with our air force, which we currently cannot.