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Which team did you play in the last game?

Glorious Arstotzka
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Glorious Moskurg
- 13 (12.3%)
Ingloriously Didn't Play
- 76 (71.7%)

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Author Topic: Intercontinental Arms Race: Finale  (Read 599854 times)

Madman198237

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3975 on: June 18, 2017, 12:33:47 pm »

The Fritz X is not the only glide bomb or guided weapon deployed in WWII.

The Japanese fighters WERE a large advantage, yes. But AAA is still very deadly against TBs and, to a lesser extend, DBs, because they move directly at the target for extended periods of time. And remember: The game does not calculate every hit and miss, instead Sensei says "They have an antiaircraft cruiser. Aircraft that rely on getting in close lose effectiveness" according to his abstracted point system.

It IS, however, a surprise if the bomb is dropped from extreme range and then glided in. I don't care if it has to look like a glider to do it, or pack half a dozen rocket motors. It can do it from long range. Then it stops being "loitering recon aircraft" and turns into an attack from out of range.

What do you mean, divebombing? That solves the problem of being an ALMOST UNMOVING TARGET relative to the vessel you're dive bombing?

We don't need to be hard-wearing if we can deploy dozens of Reckless Effects at high altitudes while simultaneously attacking them with Haasts. Their fighters will concentrate on the immediate threats much more than anything else, or they'll let the TBs through at much-reduced casualty rates.

There were wire-guided torpedoes with 40km of wire. I think we're fine, even if it does become necessary. Plus losing the radio means 30-40kg extra payload, depending on where the spool is.


Is it easier to jam? Jamming does not destroy the signal, rather it makes it impossible to pick out amidst the noise. However, there are ways to bypass it. For instance, if our controls come in in a set number of patterns (Think morse code: If your computer does nothing but look for dot-dot-dash-dash-dot-dot-dot, it'll be more likely to get around the jamming. Again: Jamming creates noise. If you think of it as visual "noise", you're looking for a red flag being waved in the middle of a bunch of not-red-colored flags.) we can see it through the jamming...usually. You might get the odd signal picked out from the jamming, but it's not likely, and the signals we're sending are not very complex.
Jamming is easier, well, sometimes. You have to create a system that blanks ALL FM FREQUENCIES, since they don't know which particular frequencies we use. Also, it must create enough power to generate a zone of noise thousands of feet in diameter. Otherwise the missile can still hear it. And, even better, if we make it a relatively directional antennae on the missile (Dish style, maybe? Pointed backwards/upwards in vague fashion) it won't even "hear" the jamming. That'd likely be a neat additional design to improve our tech (Directional targeting practice, basically. Applications in radio and also gunlaying) and make it almost immune to jamming. Of course, it'd have to follow the circling aircraft.


Whaddya mean, agile? Their Khornes and Victorias are about as agile as barn doors, and we're using GUIDED MUNITIONS. I don't care if it's got small correction windows, we can fix those if necessary. And not-very-agile doesn't mean "Unable to fly in general direction from long-distance based on radio contacts from spotter aircraft".
There are ways around that. The B-17 wasn't exactly jumping around, yet it managed to put bombs near targets (They relied on carpet bombing because they were burning cities and entire factory complexes, but same idea---the bombs usually got there, and it wasn't by making hairpin turns. They were on dedicated attack paths from Holland all the way to Germany.

Fly steady? Whaddya mean, steady? The aircraft has to loiter, yes, but that does not mean "Fly straight path and ask to get shot down pretty-please". Remember---we'll have air superiority, since the Thunderbird's turning cheap. The bomber can loiter all it needs to.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3976 on: June 18, 2017, 12:50:32 pm »

Quote
Also, get on the fucking Discord, because I don't like explaining things twice.

This is not a Discord Game. It's a game, here, on the Bay12 forums. If you're going to use the Discord channel as a reason to exclude people, I'm going to petition Sensei to shut it down.

Quote
There's also Hs 293, BV 246, GB-8, Azon and LBD Gargoyle,, SS.10, Feuerlilie, Rheintochter and Rheinbote, Henschel Hs 117 Schmetterling, Henschel Hs 298,
 Enzian, Wasserfall, Funryu, Ki-147 and Ki-148, Ke-Go, UB-2000F "Gull", Gorgon,, BQ-1, BQ-2 and BQ-3, Interstate TDR and Interstate XBDR, JB-4, KAN Little Joe, SAM-N-2 Lark, Republic-Ford JB-2, VB-3 Razon, ASM-A-1 Tarzon, GT-1, and metric fucton of more clandestine and not well known things like the https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/hellmore.jpg]Helmore Projector.

Shotgun argumentation is inherently fallacious.

I don't have the time to go through all these. If you have 1 example that was :

1) Within our tech level (no postwar designs)
2) Widely deployed
3) A radio guided glidebomb

Post that one.

Quote
The Japanese fighters WERE a large advantage, yes. But AAA is still very deadly against TBs and, to a lesser extend, DBs, because they move directly at the target for extended periods of time. And remember: The game does not calculate every hit and miss, instead Sensei says "They have an antiaircraft cruiser. Aircraft that rely on getting in close lose effectiveness" according to his abstracted point system.

Which is a bigger argument against your glidebomb than against the Torpedo Bombers and Dive bombers.

Remember, you're not dealing with self guided ammunition here. You're dealing with a simplistic, radio guided divebomb. In order to work, you need to keep the plane stable and pointed at the target at all time. If you loose sight of the bomb, you miss it. There's no option for evasion.

Meanwhile, a Torpedo bomber and divebomber will come much closer with much higher relative velocity. This means that the guns have to adjust their aim much more often, instead of slowly zeroing in on the near standstill distant plane.

The closer you are, the faster you go, the harder it is to aim.

Quote
It IS, however, a surprise if the bomb is dropped from extreme range and then glided in. I don't care if it has to look like a glider to do it, or pack half a dozen rocket motors. It can do it from long range. Then it stops being "loitering recon aircraft" and turns into an attack from out of range.

It can't. It simply, can't.

Our radar has 30 km range. The enemy is similar. 30 Kilometers of range is beyond effective visual range, making a gliding bomb suprise non functional. Oh, and if the enemy sees a big plane loitering near them, they're going to shoot it. Our big planes are too much of a target not to be shot at.

Quote
We don't need to be hard-wearing if we can deploy dozens of Reckless Effects at high altitudes while simultaneously attacking them with Haasts. Their fighters will concentrate on the immediate threats much more than anything else, or they'll let the TBs through at much-reduced casualty rates.

Except we can't do that.

The Reckless Effect is noted for it's low fuel reserves. Coordinating a strike with a carrier based force will be nearly impossible, as the Reckless Effect has no staying time (if it can even reach) and must come flying in a long time before.

Quote
Is it easier to jam? Jamming does not destroy the signal, rather it makes it impossible to pick out amidst the noise. However, there are ways to bypass it. For instance, if our controls come in in a set number of patterns (Think morse code: If your computer does nothing but look for dot-dot-dash-dash-dot-dot-dot, it'll be more likely to get around the jamming. Again: Jamming creates noise. If you think of it as visual "noise", you're looking for a red flag being waved in the middle of a bunch of not-red-colored flags.) we can see it through the jamming...usually. You might get the odd signal picked out from the jamming, but it's not likely, and the signals we're sending are not very complex.
Jamming is easier, well, sometimes. You have to create a system that blanks ALL FM FREQUENCIES, since they don't know which particular frequencies we use. Also, it must create enough power to generate a zone of noise thousands of feet in diameter. Otherwise the missile can still hear it. And, even better, if we make it a relatively directional antennae on the missile (Dish style, maybe? Pointed backwards/upwards in vague fashion) it won't even "hear" the jamming. That'd likely be a neat additional design to improve our tech (Directional targeting practice, basically. Applications in radio and also gunlaying) and make it almost immune to jamming. Of course, it'd have to follow the circling aircraft.

Any issue can be solved, but it will mean spending ever more time and resources we do not have on this design.

The Nazi's spend 6 years to make guided missiles. The Allies had an effective jamming system in 6 months.

Quote
Whaddya mean, agile? Their Khornes and Victorias are about as agile as barn doors, and we're using GUIDED MUNITIONS. I don't care if it's got small correction windows, we can fix those if necessary. And not-very-agile doesn't mean "Unable to fly in general direction from long-distance based on radio contacts from spotter aircraft".

You're dramatically overstating the capabilities of course correction that your bomb will have. It's not going to be enough to be droppable from a cargo plane.

Quote
Fly steady? Whaddya mean, steady? The aircraft has to loiter, yes, but that does not mean "Fly straight path and ask to get shot down pretty-please".

Except it does.

Quote
The bomber was vulnerable to fighter attack as well as ship-based air defense weapons while maintaining a slow, steady course so the bombardier could maintain visual contact to guide the bomb

In the end, your glidebomb is a weapon that can only be used by 2 planes.

One outdated and shortranged bomber, the other a cargo plane never intended as a bomber.


« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 01:05:41 pm by 10ebbor10 »
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Kot

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3977 on: June 18, 2017, 12:53:47 pm »

This is not a Discord Game. It's a game, here, on the Bay12 forums. If you're going to use the Discord as a reason to exclude people, I'm going to petition Sensei to shut it down.
Get on the fucking Discord, or I will petition Sensei to shut down the forum game.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3978 on: June 18, 2017, 12:57:16 pm »

Quote
The game will be primarily played in this thread, but there are other means of the communication available:

Thread takes precendence over Discord.
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Kot

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3979 on: June 18, 2017, 01:01:01 pm »

GET ON THE DISCORD.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3980 on: June 18, 2017, 01:03:20 pm »

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The Arms Race Discord is an optional place where you can communicate through both text and voice, in channels open to both sides and a private channel for your faction.

Quote
optional[op-shuh-nl]

adjective
1.
left to one's choice; not required or mandatory:
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somemildmanneredidiot

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3981 on: June 18, 2017, 01:08:59 pm »

Someone do the Shinji meme
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Sheb

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3982 on: June 18, 2017, 01:36:53 pm »

GET ON THE DISCORD.

Stop bein an ass. Not everyone wants/can go on discord.
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Kot

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3983 on: June 18, 2017, 01:41:07 pm »

GET ON THE DISCORD.

Stop bein an ass. Not everyone wants/can go on discord.
Get on the Discord.
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Sheb

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3984 on: June 18, 2017, 01:42:48 pm »

Ok dang, we broke Kot.

Anyway, 10ebbor10, what about the fact that a radio-guided bomb is a step toward better guided design? Guided missiles are going to be the first big thing which can give use sea advantages.
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Taricus

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3985 on: June 18, 2017, 01:44:46 pm »

Which is going to be useless without batter radar to spot targets: We can't launch guided missiles at targets that don't exist.

Though entire guided missile thing is moot due to it basically requiring transistor electronics for decent, fire-and-forget guided weapons.
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Sheb

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3986 on: June 18, 2017, 01:45:30 pm »

Yeah, I think it's too early for this to be the best research, even though I wouldn't say it's entirely useless.
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Taricus

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3987 on: June 18, 2017, 01:46:26 pm »

For practical uses within five in game years it'll be useless. Would it help after that? Abosolutely, but anyone who wants guided weapons is getting carried away with wunderwaffen.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3988 on: June 18, 2017, 01:48:17 pm »

They're one part of the step, but there are many others. Too many, in my opinion.

It'll take too long to pay off, and doing several Very Hard research steps would put us in an unwinnable position.
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Kashyyk

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Strategy Phase)
« Reply #3989 on: June 18, 2017, 01:51:16 pm »

Whilst the bombardier guided bomb might be effective,  I don't think it'll be effective enough for the effort involved.

Also,  I thought the acronym for Anti-Air was AA. What's the third A for?

Finally, I physically cannot get on discord. Thus I instantly get predisposed against any plan that starts with "we agreed this on discord so we're gonna do this no arguments".
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