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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Madman198237]

Attack Eastern Northern Cannalla (2) 10ebbor10, Stabby
Attack Plains: (5) NUKE9.13, Khan Boyzitbig, 3_14159, Azzuro
Attack Tundra (7) 10ebbor10, NUKE9.13, Khan Boyzitbig, 3_14159, Stabby, Azzuro
Hold our forces in reserve(aka don't attack): (1) Lightforger
Hold back the Long Shot: (2) 3_14159, Azzuro
Deploy the Long Shot: (5) RAM, NAV, Sheb, Stabby, Madman198237

[10ebbor10]

If we still keep hold of it, then go on with something sensible

There, fixed that for you.

The radio glide bomb is a silly idea. It's an archetypical Wunderwaffe: Expensive, Ineffective and pursued only because of the mistaken notion that because it was hard, it must be good.

We do not need Glidebombs. We have no use for glidebombs. We will not gain anything from glidebombs.

Our primary bomber aircraft, the Haast, can not deploy them. Our other bomber (the HAFB) won't last enough to deploy them.

[andrea]

I don't know, reading around they seemed reasonably effective. Not working wunderwaffe level, but effective.

[Madman198237]

Ebbor.
Stop.

Thanks!


The glide bomb is an effective weapon. Unless you wish to debate the merits of guided weaponry? You'll lose.

It allows us to extend, MOST IMPORTANTLY, our air advantages to the sea even more directly than with torpedoes. You ever heard of Midway? 95% TB casualties, because AAA is murder on low-level straight-line fliers. This design will allow us to drop bombs out of the cargo doors of Ice Giants and Recklesses as we wish, guiding them directly to the target from 15000 feet or more. You think that's useless? Well, too bad. People who have more positive outlooks and more reasoning capability have already made a plan we would LIKE to follow, even if it does take hits as we respond to Cannalan inventions. Said people also hammered out the idea of a radio-controlled glide bomb.

If you don't like it, well, you'll lose that vote. Don't have a negative outlook, and don't waste your time with baseless complaints and accusations. It's not a "wunderwaffe", it's a solid technical innovation deployed in WWII that went on, in principle, to be the basis for 90% of modern aircraft weapons. Everything guided owes something to the first radio-controlled glide bombs.

[10ebbor10]

They were effective when used by Nazi Germany, because the situation was different there.

Radio guided bombs require that they're guided in by a radio operator. The Haast, our primary bomber aircraft, is a single seater. The HAFB is frankly outdated, and getting torn to pieces by the enemies jets.

All our battles occur with heavy air cover from both sides. In order to effectively deploy these radio guided bombs, the plane operating them has to sit still and fly in a relatively straight line, to avoid loosing track of them.

Edit: Oh, and the enemy can deploy a revision to stop them in a single turn. Jammers aren't hard.

[Kot]

Radio guided bombs require that they're guided in by a radio operator. The Haast, our primary bomber aircraft, is a single seater. The HAFB is frankly outdated, and getting torn to pieces by the enemies jets.

A major point for glide bombs is that they allow for suprise attacks. Low-level bombing, not so much.

All our battles occur with heavy air cover from both sides. In order to effectively deploy these radio guided bombs, the plane operating them has to sit still and fly in a relatively straight line, to avoid loosing track of them.

Is that in any way worse than sitting still and flying in a relatively straight line we have to do to bomb/torpedo enemy ships?

Edit: Oh, and the enemy can deploy a revision to stop them in a single turn. Jammers aren't hard.

Wire guided then.

Although, I'd think we'd have more use of guided glide torpedoes.

[Madman198237]

Jamming is hard when they have to be LONG RANGED, work on a set of frequencies you've NEVER TRIED, and in a game where having no experience causes higher difficulties.

OK. I think you stopped thinking. In fact, I know it.

Glide bombs are HIGHLY effective, and in fact can be deployed in great numbers after a single revision, IF EVEN. We revise our preexisting MTA to drop them 4 at a time. And the Ice Giant could drop them 12 at a time. Then we have all the radio operators you could ever wish for.

If they invent jamming, well, guess what? That's a wasted design for them. We up our radio power/change how they operate to get around the jamming, problem solved. And we get one turn, minimum, of free reign at blowing them up at sea.

Oh, and the jammers need to work up to 1000+ feet, MINIMUM. The last 1000 feet isn't the important part of a glide bomb's fall. The rest is where you get it closer and closer. You don't have time to make last-second corrections. Especially not with simplistic tech like ours.

[piratejoe]

Attack Eastern Northern Cannalla (2) 10ebbor10, Stabby,
Attack Plains: (6) NUKE9.13, Khan Boyzitbig, 3_14159, Azzuro, Piratejoe
Attack Tundra ( 10ebbor10, NUKE9.13, Khan Boyzitbig, 3_14159, Stabby, Azzuro, Piratejoe
Hold our forces in reserve(aka don't attack): (1) Lightforger
Hold back the Long Shot: (3) 3_14159, Azzuro, Piratejoe
Deploy the Long Shot: (5) RAM, NAV, Sheb, Stabby, Madman198237

There is literally no reason to use the long shot seeing that its basically useless...

[10ebbor10]

Yeez. A bit less aggressive please.

In your last two posts you're made 2 arguments, and 6 insults.

You're trying to enforce a group think by insulting anyone who goes against your plan as being dumb, overly negative, irrational, certain to be defeated. Sorry, but the very fact that you have to resort to those arguments shows the weakness of them.

I'll do the actual arguments in a seperate post.

[NUKE9.13]

Hey, Madman, calm down. ebbor disagreeing with you does not make him a bad person. Also, telling someone "We made this plan and nothing you can do will stop it" is... a bit of a dick move. Besides, I'm not sure your plan has quite the level of overwhelming support you think it does.

[Madman198237]

Actually, baselessly telling us that we're idiots for suggesting the guided glide bomb makes him a bad person.

His argument of "It's a wunderwaffe, because I said so, and therefore it's bad and you only want to because it's hard" was also not terribly intelligent.


The plan doesn't have overwhelming support, and I didn't say or imply it did. However, I did tell him that if he would like to discuss the merits of guided weaponry, I know who will win. And that the glide bomb idea is solid, and not going to end merely because ebbor calls it impractical.

[10ebbor10]

You're having a serious persecution complex there. I never told you you were idiots. I explained my reasons why the weapon wouldn't work, and am still doing so.

Also, a serious lying issue.

If you don't like it, well, you'll lose that vote.

[Madman198237]

Fine. Where is your argument? Spell it out, point by point. Research and/or facts are a nice addition.

I was a bit angry, but accusing us of wanting something because it's difficult is baseless, and calling something that was deployed by many nations in WWII a "wunderwaffe" is not a good start to your arguments.

[10ebbor10]

95% TB casualties, because AAA is murder on low-level straight-line fliers.

Midway Torpedo bomber casualties were the result of unescorted torpedo bombers being attacked by Japanese fighters. Not AAA.

A major point for glide bombs is that they allow for suprise attacks. Low-level bombing, not so much.

Enemy has radar on all major ships. No suprise attack is going to happen.

Is that in any way worse than sitting still and flying in a relatively straight line we have to do to bomb/torpedo enemy ships?

Divebombing is a thing. More importantly, our torpedo bombers are not fragile, unlike the Icegiants and to a lesser extent, HAFB's.

Also, the fact that you're deploying a glide bomb rather than a normal bomb means you need to continue flying in the same direction for a lot longer.

Wire guided then.

That's going to be one hell of a long wire.

Jamming is hard when they have to be LONG RANGED, work on a set of frequencies you've NEVER TRIED, and in a game where having no experience causes higher difficulties.

If they invent jamming, well, guess what? That's a wasted design for them. We up our radio power/change how they operate to get around the jamming, problem solved.

It's a fundamental fact that it's easier to jam than to send transmissions through jamming. After all, the jammer only needs to make radio noise, the transmitters need to get through useful information.

The other reasons why jamming is easier are :

1) Jamming needs only to be successful for a short time to make the bomb's trajectory irrecoverable.
2) The missile is coming to them, giving them the range advantage. Not just the last 1000 feet, but long before that.
3) They're on a boat, we're on a plane, giving them mass advantage. They can afford a much bigger radio.

Glide bombs are HIGHLY effective, and in fact can be deployed in great numbers after a single revision, IF EVEN. We revise our preexisting MTA to drop them 4 at a time. And the Ice Giant could drop them 12 at a time. Then we have all the radio operators you could ever wish for.

Except they won't be able to.

The Fritz-X, as an example, could make a maximum correction of 500 metres (1,600 ft) in range and 350 metres (1,150 ft) in bearing. The Ice Giant is not at all agile. It will struggle to make the initial window.

In addition, these were often deployed alone, not together. This is because the bombardier has to keep track of the individual bomb, and he can't accidentally pick the wrong one. So you can't dump 12 out at once. Maybe 1 or 2, but no more.

The last issue is that the bomber has to fly steady. The Ice giant is way too big a target for that. I'd get shot down easily.

The HAFB is not a feasible alternative. It's noted as being short ranged, which will prevent it from being effective.

I was a bit angry

Still are.

calling something that was deployed by many nations in WWII a "wunderwaffe" is not a good start to your arguments.

I'm calling it a wunderwaffe, because it is, and was IRL.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wunderwaffe#Bombs_and_explosives)

The Fritz-X was long in development(since 1938), used by just 1 unit after being introduced Summer 1943, and rendered useless early 1944.

It was used succesfully less than 20 times.

[Kot]

Wire guided then.

That's going to be one hell of a long wire.

Man-portable wire guided missiles have like 2,5 - 5 kilometers of wire. Big bombs and missiles easily allow for longer wires.

I'm calling it a wunderwaffe, because it is, and was IRL.

There's also Hs 293, BV 246, GB-8, Azon and LBD Gargoyle,, SS.10, Feuerlilie, Rheintochter and Rheinbote, Henschel Hs 117 Schmetterling, Henschel Hs 298,
 Enzian, Wasserfall, Funryu, Ki-147 and Ki-148, Ke-Go, UB-2000F "Gull", Gorgon,, BQ-1, BQ-2 and BQ-3, Interstate TDR and Interstate XBDR, JB-4, KAN Little Joe, SAM-N-2 Lark, Republic-Ford JB-2, VB-3 Razon, ASM-A-1 Tarzon, GT-1, and metric fucton of more clandestine and not well known things like the Helmore Projector.
Also look at post-war designs where EVERYTHING IS GUIDED. I mean, the argument "it was not used very well in WW2" is kinda useless in Arms Race perspective, considering things we make.

EDIT:
Also, get on the fucking Discord, because I don't like explaining things twice.