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Which team did you play in the last game?

Glorious Arstotzka
- 17 (16%)
Glorious Moskurg
- 13 (12.3%)
Ingloriously Didn't Play
- 76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106


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Author Topic: Intercontinental Arms Race: Finale  (Read 599948 times)

10ebbor10

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3737 on: June 14, 2017, 01:28:28 am »

Please don't waste another turn on the Navy.

What do you even want to gain?

Quote
If your naval strength is Equal to the enemy, nobody has an advantage. If you are doing noticeably better, you have an Advantage, and have the benefit of outnumbering the enemy when fighting for islands. If you are doing better than the enemy in multiple aspects, you will have a Large Advantage, which confers the previous benefit as well as reducing enemy transport capacity at sea by half, rounded up.

At best, and that is very unlikely, we reduce the enemy to a standard disadvantage. That gives us extra transport capacity, which will be useless if we can't hold the Jungle.


« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 01:33:02 am by 10ebbor10 »
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Taricus

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3738 on: June 14, 2017, 01:34:11 am »

It will help us hold the jungle. So far the one thing they're lagging behind in is infantry, and with cheap salamanders they'll have a much harder time securing a beach-head. They can't fight against our airpower thanks to Tereshkova and their landings are stymied by coastal artillery. As the targeting system for the artillery is potentially a revision and could easily be applied to naval vessels we'll be able to make the cannons that much more accurate. They may build a bigger ship? Sure, but our torpedoes will knock them out. The ATGM however will not hold the shores; they're too short ranged to inflict hits on ships further afield, and the missiles are too small to damage the walruses that are close to shore.

Would it be a good theoretical project? Sure, but we need more than a theoretical this turn.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3739 on: June 14, 2017, 01:35:12 am »

It won't.

In order to affect enemy deployement, we need to push the enemy a minor naval disadvantage. We will not get that.

I doubt we'll get anything. Remember, the enemy gets extra Ore this turn. Your Cruiser will be overwhelmed.

Quote
The Western Jungle Island:
When Cannalan forces arrive, the French colony is in worse shape than expected. They say that some group of pirates has been extorting them for a while and decided to steal as much they could before fleeing when word came that the Cannalan Navy was on its way. According to the colonists, the pirates refused to speak about their origins, but they were almost all white and spoke Russian. The resources here will not be ready in time to affect unit prices until Turn 13.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 01:37:57 am by 10ebbor10 »
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Taricus

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3740 on: June 14, 2017, 01:37:31 am »

They get extra ore, but their victora class goes back to being VE, which means the effect of our coastal artillery goes back up as they have less means to counteract it.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3741 on: June 14, 2017, 01:39:20 am »

Yes, our coastal artillery will work, but I doubt very much that the cruiser will aid. Naval stuff doesn't stop deployement until it gets them to a minor naval disadvantage.And that won't happen.

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Taricus

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3742 on: June 14, 2017, 01:40:44 am »

Maybe, but every step towards that helps immeasurably. And they ARE steps we need to take in order to invade the Cannalan held islands: It is THE reason our landings are failing.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3743 on: June 14, 2017, 01:43:06 am »

ATGM's will help repel their landing tanks.  They can be appended to the turrets of Salamanders, giving them more stopping power during our landings.  They open the door to cruise missiles and AA missiles and all sorts of juicy tech.

A cruiser will be outclassed by their existing ships.  They put out a battleship last turn, and that was already with a MNA.  How will putting out a smaller, less-armed ship that's historically been prey to battleships drop them to a Small Naval Advantage?  The ATGM at least offers to make our tanks and Salamanders better and give our defenses a solid boost, while also letting us get further into the tech field.

Even if we decide on doing something other than an ATGM, that's fine!  I'm okay with literally anything that's not a naval weapon.  It would be a waste of a turn.

10ebbor10

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3744 on: June 14, 2017, 01:45:05 am »

Maybe, but every step towards that helps immeasurably. And they ARE steps we need to take in order to invade the Cannalan held islands: It is THE reason our landings are failing.

Yes, it helps immeasurably, as in, "The effect is too tiny to measure because it's non-existent".

The only thing you're going to accomplish is :

1) Spur Cannala to further advance their naval advantage
2) Give Cannala an opportunity to take the Jungle, the mountain or whatever else they want.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 01:46:45 am by 10ebbor10 »
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Taricus

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3745 on: June 14, 2017, 01:54:09 am »

Because said smaller ship is cheaper ES. Numbers do count, especially with our torpedoes. Their tanks aren't helping much, if at all with the landings and our RPGs + Flamethrowers are more than capable of dealing with them. Not to mention they probably aren't safe to drive from the interior of a lander. We cannot, nor will not, surrender the seas to Cannala.

The ATGM will not be able to help repulse infantry assaults as well, and it is this infantry advantage that's been key, along with the coastal guns, to keeping our shores safe. Unless we deal with their threat at the source we cannot push the offensive and we'll be stuck on the defensive. If we get stuck on the defensive we're done for; we've handed Cannala the initiative and with that the entire damn war.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3746 on: June 14, 2017, 01:56:37 am »

Becomes Cheap

Dragonfly Floatplane Fighter: [L] [Expensive] The Dragonfly is a fighter plane, optimized for interception. Aluminum low-wing monoplane, lands on floats. Powered by an 11-cylinder radial engine up front. It is armed with two Can Perforators, one in each wing. The plane is light, maneuverable and has decent climbing power. The use of pontoons slows it down, though. It can carry half a ton of bombs/torpedoes on two mounts, but flies like an over-ambitious chicken when doing so. [4 Ore (1 Al) 3 Oil]

M3T3A1 SPAAG "Firecracker": [Expensive] The Self-Propelled AA Gun is placed on a Raider chassis, although it was found far easier to operate with the entire roof of the Raider removed and some of the passenger space taken up by the weapon than fitting in the existing turret place. It relies on a specially modified Daybreaker system, the section which lifts rounds out of the carousel is curved to match the gun's movement range. It has a fuze system for air-burst rounds, where the gunner sets the altitude on a dial and the actual fuze time is determined based on that and the angle of the gun. [4 Ore 2 Oil]

M3T1A1 Raider: [Cheap] Daybreaker Variant: [Expensive] The Raider is a Diesel-Electric tracked APC designed to serve as a base platform for many roles. It has light RHA armor with a sloped front, plus slats. It holds ten passengers and three crew, making it look like a large metal box. It has an interchangeable turret, which is very wide and flat with medium armor. Default armament is a Can shredder, plus 6 external Thumper barrels for smoke grenades and an RPG, these can only be reloaded from the outside. It's also chemical warfare protected, and last but not least, amphibious, with a trim vane and two electric powered propellers. Exits are on large rear hatch and one small top hatch, only latter can be used while afloat. [3 Ore 2 Oil] Daybreaker Variant: [4 Ore 2 Oil]

Type 36 Tank Destroyer (S1928W): [L ] [Expensive] The Type 36 is a Type 22 (a light, fast Juraki tank) that's traded in its armor for a somewhat shortened 4-inch Raikou cannon. The cannon has a shortened barrel, with modest inclination and a very narrow arc of rotation in front of the vehicle. It is armored with a slanted front piece of Thin RHA armor with a vertical slat for the cannon barrel, the back half of the tank is open to the air. It's about as fast as the normal Type 22 with the same wonky transmission. For protection, it is armed with a forward-facing 13mm machine gun. [4 Ore 3 Oil]

M2A1 Armadillo:[L] [Expensive], Daybreaker Variant: [Expensive] A main battle tank. It is armored fully in Medium-thickness RHA. The frontal armor is slanted in a snow plow shape to better deflect incoming shells, and the rest of the armor is near-flat, looks like an overturned boat. The turret has a purpose-built 2.5" Armadillo Gun, based on the Nightstorm. The turret is hand-cranked and slow. The co-driver, commander and gunner all get Muerte MG's. The gunner can fire about nine times per minute. The tank gets up to a running pace with a bit of a head start. There are the comparatively weak armor slats at the rear where the radiator ventilates. The whole thing is mounted on wide treads. [4 Ore 3 Oil] Daybreaker Variant: [5 Ore 3 Oil]

Walrus Landing Ship: [L] [Expensive] Based on the Kraken-C cargo ship, this huge lander has a shallow-draft bow for landing on beaches, with clamshell doors, which depend on the world's biggest rubber gasket to seal shut, made of quality imported Tropican rubber. The interior can hold a large number of vehicles and soldiers, and it has cranes capable of lifting cargo as well as Bucaneer Boats. It is well equipped with a hospital, galley, mechanic shop and the like. It has reduced armor and a defensive armament of four Can Shredders and some Can Perforators. [2 Wood, 4 Ore, 3 Oil]

Corsair Destroyer: [L] [Expensive] The Corsair is a moderate sized ship with light (for a ship) steel hull armor. It has a light cannon armament of two hydraulic-equipped Nightwind cannons and four Can Shredders. However, its main armament is its Shark Torpedo launchers (it has a couple on each side) and newly-invented Seahorse mines, which use the same warheads as Shark torpedoes but rest on the sea surface, detonating on cpntact with ships. It is powered by steam turbines and easily outpaces battleships like the Kalmar, Kraken and Kurokami. [4 ore 3 Oil]

Kraken Coastal Defense Ship: [L] [Expensive] Release the Kraken! A heavily armored ironclad, with 4x2 Nightwind turrets, and 4 Can Opener side turrets, plus space on deck. Two steam turbines and other critical components are in a heavily armored citadel, featuring nigh on a foot of nickel steel armor. The rest of the ship is lightly armored. Relatively fast, but slow to turn. Steel frame, wooden decks, furniture, and con tower. [2 Wood, 4 Ore, 2 Oil]

Becomes Expensive

B-1M2 Man'O War Class Heavy Bomber: [L] [Very Expensive] The Manowar is a large, steel-and-aluminum bomber. It has four V10 "Sparrowhawk" engines, which are turbocharged, on the wings. It is defended with four Can Perforator turrets, on the front, bottom, top and rear. It has fixed landing gear, and a small amount of armor around the cockpit, engines and fuel. Carries 3 tons of bombs, and the bomber has an adjustable iron bombsight for rough aiming. Regardless of bomb load, it is ungainly in flight despite its powerful engines, and difficult to land. It rattles violently in flight and is reinforced with heavy metal plates.. Long runway required. [5 Ore (1Al), 4 Oil]

Santos-Class Naval Aircraft Support Vessel: [Very Expensive] The Santos is a large aircraft carrier. It is about the size of the Khorne but not armored. It's powered by four oil-burning steam turbines, which are more powerful than coal ones. The hangar deck stores two dozen fighters, moved to the flight deck by a hydraulic lift. On deck is an Eagle Eye Radar system, con tower, a few Firecracker AA guns and a miscellaneous autocannons wherever there's spare room. It also has a decent sized flight deck, with an arrester cable for landing aircraft, and two overlapping runways with room for ready aircraft on deck. It also has a steam catapult, which allows it to launch some planes which could not normally take off from its short runway. [5 Ore, 4 Oil]


Quote
Because said smaller ship is cheaper ES. Numbers do count, especially with our torpedoes. Their tanks aren't helping much, if at all with the landings and our RPGs + Flamethrowers are more than capable of dealing with them. Not to mention they probably aren't safe to drive from the interior of a lander. We cannot, nor will not, surrender the seas to Cannala.

The ATGM will not be able to help repulse infantry assaults as well, and it is this infantry advantage that's been key, along with the coastal guns, to keeping our shores safe. Unless we deal with their threat at the source we cannot push the offensive and we'll be stuck on the defensive. If we get stuck on the defensive we're done for; we've handed Cannala the initiative and with that the entire damn war.

We surrendered the Seas to Cannala when we didn't develop any naval stuff during the Artotzkan Moskurgian. Winning navally has never, even been an option.

Look at the list above. Next turn, we will not have a numerical advantage in destroyers, we will not have a numerical advantage in carriers. The enemy will get many more landers.

The only way we can ever scratch the Cannalan naval advantage is if we build up a supply of secret projects, and unleash them all at once.




« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 02:02:28 am by 10ebbor10 »
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Taricus

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3747 on: June 14, 2017, 02:02:22 am »

And Neither of the Cannalan big ships become VE. If we get a light cruiser that can deal with theirs only expensive, (Especially at 5 ore, 4 oil) we'll definitely be back in the running. To spurn the seas is to condemn ourselves to a slow death.

And if the bull's price isn't changing, then we still have nothing to worry about: Daybreaker raiders are still soundly defeated by the salamander and the Armadillo daybreaker doesn't become more common. Furthermore, the Man'O'War isn't exactly the most stable flying platform, and will not do much even with a cannalan push to the skies (Which an ATGM will not help with regardless)

EDIT: Furthermore, while we did not design much naval equipment in the last war, land warfare was more important there. But here, we need to change our pitiful navy into something that can stand up to the cannalan one. We have no option in backing down; we must fight on the waves and we must do so effectively.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 02:04:10 am by Taricus »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3748 on: June 14, 2017, 02:04:14 am »

And Neither of the Cannalan big ships become VE. If we get a light cruiser that can deal with theirs only expensive, (Especially at 5 ore, 4 oil) we'll definitely be back in the running. To spurn the seas is to condemn ourselves to a slow death.

No we won't.

We are going to loose the war in the air at Sea, and we're going to loose our cheap destroyer "advantage". We will not recover by making a cruiser.
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Kashyyk

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Summer 1941 (Design Phase)
« Reply #3749 on: June 14, 2017, 02:06:09 am »

Our navy consists of a destroyer and two aircraft carriers.

Their's consists of two battleships, two cruisers, an aircraft carrier a destroyer and a gunboat.

Notice how they're filling three more ship roles than we are? The difference between having a cutting edge ship versus no ship is enourmous compared to an out-dated ship.

We don't need to try and win navally, we just need to not give it to them on a silver platter. Once we fill a gap they will never have as much of advantage over us in that section of naval warfare ever again, because we are actually offering token resistance.

Our air force will always need to do the heavy lifting, but we need to provide a navy that can delay theirs long enough for the planes to do it.
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