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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[RAM]

All of these voting system shifts smack to me of something designed to shift the voting mechanism so that a different decision is reached, as it was before. Let's just keep a normal vote, but exclude comeitionals because those ARE completely fucky

I don't really care to do that. I sort of like the coastal batteries. A defensive bonus to our coasts would be remarkably useful. I mean, sure, they can be blowed up easily enough by moniitors or aeroplanes or spies, but those all sort of become expensive if you don't completely dominate the region. Coastal guns were legitimately good at forcing people to deal with them. I DO think that it is a dead-end technology though. Large guns just aren't practical on small ships and we want our escorts to be small. Rockets can easily be mounted on much smaller foundations than artillery can and the massive size difference and salvo density ought to easily make up for the aiming difficulty, assuming that there even is any aiming difficulty... A mechanical computer might be enough for an aerial torpedo, possibly even with a magnetic switch to dive into the water-line when it gets close to something tasty. And if we manage radar-seeking misiles, well, then we have a proper party, even if they are the size of a V-2 they will still give shipping some serious headaches...
 Now, granted, somethign the size of a V-2 would be difficult to launch from a 4-metre ship, but if it were guided and launched from a small ship then it could afford to be forward-launch only, given that it would be insane effective at claiming high-tonnage targets.

Uhm, where was I? Oh, right, no, I am not trying to change THIS vote's outcome. I am trying to change votes in general. Specifically, I am trying to avoid this specific scenario where it 'seems' as though guns are outnumbered by carriers two-to-one, but we don't actually know for certain that carrier votes favour carriers in general or just that specific carrier. A split vote or preferential vote would reveal such indicators. If the people who want carriers all feel pretty good about coastal rifles and the people who like coastal rifles all hate carriers then it would favour the coastal rifles tremendously. On the other hand, what is more likely is that people who voted for one carrier are also okay with an alternative carrier, and so they will push their lead higher, but it isn't certain. That is why the vote change would be so good, because it would allow people to actually vote for what they want, rather than being forced to politic if they want an outcome that they like, rather than just voting for what they really want to vote for.

Anak-S.A.300-1940-killroy "Paralytic Sneeze" Assault Ship
This is a refurbished Archer with its forwards deck replaced with a massive catapult system. This catapult uses rocket-parcels to propel a vehicle from its bow at a modest upward angle at high speeds with a shield behind it to protect from the rocket blast. The vehicle in question is an extremely long 300mm(sans wings) rocket specified to travel at least 50 kilometres and ideally up to 200 kilometres. The rocket mounts three radar receivers at its nose that send a signal to its tail-positioned control system. The control system uses signals from the radar recievers to magnetically direct a steering lever, the first signal pulling it to one side and the later signals correcting it, along iwth a self-correcting system. This causes it to veer towards, and into, radar transmitters... Ideally each such vessel will carry three such rounds with a rear-mounted antiarcraft nest consisting of a single bumblebee and several autocannons.

And with that, we have an archer, after someone has put a rocket on it...

[evictedSaint]

(7) B3 'Compensator' 300mm Coastal Gun/Naval Cannon: Kashyyk, khan boyzitbig, Taricus, strongpoint, Nav, 10ebbor10, Baffler
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern A:
(7+1) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern C: GUNINANRUNIN, Kashyyk*, Stabby, Madman198237, helmacon, McHuman, voidslayer, 3_14159
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern D:
(10+1) UFS-CV-40 Zheleznogorod B: Kot, Mulisa, Azzuro, NUKE9.13, Piratejoe, Sheb, Powder Miner, Andrea, Aedel, NAV*, evictedSaint
0 "Killerqueen":
0 Unity Tiger Armor:
1 "Salad Shake" class heavy transport: RAM
0+1 "Psyche" fake carrier and real transport: RAM*

I guess the Z isn't terrible, but at least it features a ramp and it's one of Kot's saner designs.

[stabbymcstabstab]

(7) B3 'Compensator' 300mm Coastal Gun/Naval Cannon: Kashyyk, khan boyzitbig, Taricus, strongpoint, Nav, 10ebbor10, Baffler
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern A:
(6+1) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern C: GUNINANRUNIN, Kashyyk*,  Madman198237, helmacon, McHuman, voidslayer, 3_14159
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern D:
(11+1) UFS-CV-40 Zheleznogorod B: Kot, Mulisa, Azzuro, NUKE9.13, Piratejoe, Sheb, Powder Miner, Andrea, Aedel, NAV*, evictedSaint, Stabby,
0 "Killerqueen":
0 Unity Tiger Armor:
1 "Salad Shake" class heavy transport: RAM
0+1 "Psyche" fake carrier and real transport: RAM*

I guess the Z isn't terrible, but at least it features a ramp and it's one of Kot's saner designs.

well if the double deck idea ends poorly, it's not going to cripple the ship so I'll switch back.

[RAM]

(7) B3 'Compensator' 300mm Coastal Gun/Naval Cannon: Kashyyk, khan boyzitbig, Taricus, strongpoint, Nav, 10ebbor10, Baffler
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern A:
(6+1) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern C: GUNINANRUNIN, Kashyyk*,  Madman198237, helmacon, McHuman, voidslayer, 3_14159
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern D:
(11+1) UFS-CV-40 Zheleznogorod B: Kot, Mulisa, Azzuro, NUKE9.13, Piratejoe, Sheb, Powder Miner, Andrea, Aedel, NAV*, evictedSaint, Stabby,
0 "Killerqueen":
0 Unity Tiger Armor:
1 "Salad Shake" class heavy transport: RAM
0+1 "Psyche" fake carrier and real transport: RAM*
0 "Paralytic Sneeze" Assault Ship and guided missile carrier:

[Happerry]

(8) B3 'Compensator' 300mm Coastal Gun/Naval Cannon: Kashyyk, khan boyzitbig, Taricus, strongpoint, Nav, 10ebbor10, Baffler, Happerry
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern A:
(6+1) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern C: GUNINANRUNIN, Kashyyk*,  Madman198237, helmacon, McHuman, voidslayer, 3_14159
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern D:
(11+1) UFS-CV-40 Zheleznogorod B: Kot, Mulisa, Azzuro, NUKE9.13, Piratejoe, Sheb, Powder Miner, Andrea, Aedel, NAV*, evictedSaint, Stabby,
0 "Killerqueen":
0 Unity Tiger Armor:
1 "Salad Shake" class heavy transport: RAM
0+1 "Psyche" fake carrier and real transport: RAM*
0 "Paralytic Sneeze" Assault Ship and guided missile carrier:

[Madman198237]

( B3 'Compensator' 300mm Coastal Gun/Naval Cannon: Kashyyk, khan boyzitbig, Taricus, strongpoint, Nav, 10ebbor10, Baffler, Happerry
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern A:
(5+1) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern C: GUNINANRUNIN, Kashyyk*, helmacon, McHuman, voidslayer, 3_14159
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern D:
(12+1) UFS-CV-40 Zheleznogorod B: Kot, Mulisa, Azzuro, NUKE9.13, Piratejoe, Sheb, Powder Miner, Andrea, Aedel, NAV*, evictedSaint, Stabby, Madman198237
0 "Killerqueen":
0 Unity Tiger Armor:
1 "Salad Shake" class heavy transport: RAM
0+1 "Psyche" fake carrier and real transport: RAM*
0 "Paralytic Sneeze" Assault Ship and guided missile carrier:

[Olith McHuman]

( B3 'Compensator' 300mm Coastal Gun/Naval Cannon: Kashyyk, khan boyzitbig, Taricus, strongpoint, Nav, 10ebbor10, Baffler, Happerry
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern A:
(4+1) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern C: GUNINANRUNIN, Kashyyk*, helmacon, voidslayer, 3_14159
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern D:
(13+1) UFS-CV-40 Zheleznogorod B: Kot, Mulisa, Azzuro, NUKE9.13, Piratejoe, Sheb, Powder Miner, Andrea, Aedel, NAV*, evictedSaint, Stabby, Madman198237, McHuman
0 "Killerqueen":
0 Unity Tiger Armor:
1 "Salad Shake" class heavy transport: RAM
0+1 "Psyche" fake carrier and real transport: RAM*
0 "Paralytic Sneeze" Assault Ship and guided missile carrier:

[Kot]

Spoiler: Zheleznogorod (click to show/hide)

They're actually doing it!

[evictedSaint]

Congrats, Kot!



Alright, let's assume we roll great on the Z and we can spend the revision on something other than fixing the design.

We could...

1) Revise the Z as a cargoship with 3 TC - assuming Cannala doesn't have Large Naval Advantage, this would make the
Thunderbird Expensive
The Haast, Reckless, AS-1931-HAFB, Salamander, T2 Breaker, and AS-MV21-AL Cheap

2) Reverse-engineer Cannala's Bull Tank - this would give us the turboshaft engine and daybreaker techs.  Two techs for the price of one!

3) Revise [Complex] off the Jet Engine - this would make the Thunderbird Expensive and contribute to future jet designs.

4) Fix the God Damn Archer - would likely give us a solid +1 to the naval combat theatre.

5) Jet Engines on the Reckless - if we get the weight up from 4 tons to 8, it can air-drop Salamanders and carry 2 TC.  Enemy can't disrupt TC from air.

6) Landing Boat Archer - revise the Archer into a landing boat so we can start pushing back.

7) Smaller Radar - would let us get into AWAC-type planes and mount radar on each ship individually.

[NAV]

Upgun the MAT-26-50 tank destroyer so it can actually do something to stop Cannala's tank advantage which helped them advance in the plains.

9) Modernize the M1 Stallion into an effective and less heavy HMG.

[Sensei]

UFS-CV-40 'Zheleznogorod' B

The Zheleznogorod-class is United Forenia's answer to the Santos-class carriers fielded by Cannala. A purpose-built carrier, it is larger and longer than the Wasp Nest, but its most distinctive feature is the two stacked flight decks, both equipped with rocket-powered (or failing that, steam or hydraulic or pneumatic or just none at all) catapults to help our aircraft get up to speed and both terminating in ski jump ramps to ensure our planes start climbing immediately. A small number of planes can be parked at the rear of upper flight deck in a ready condition, which in conjunction with the hangar ending in another launch deck, allows the Zheleznogorod to scramble its fighters far faster than the Wasp Nest could. Two hydraulic lifts located at the middle and rear end of the top flight deck allow planes to be brought up from the hangar level below. Being open ended on both sides means larger planes can be lifted by hanging the tail off the end. The hanger features three "fire curtains" and has enough room for unused planes to be hung from the rafters.  The deck is made of steel rather than wood, in order to withstand the forces a jet aircraft would put on it. A design element that is definitely not inspired by the Cannalans is the addition of an elevated tower island to starboard, counterbalanced by offsetting the engines to port, allowing the ship's commanders a better view of flight operations and appreciation of the battle situation. The edges of the upper deck contain a number of Bumblebee and AS-AC18s emplacements for defence, along with a safety netting to prevent careless sailors from falling into the ocean. The ship also has a medium armour torpedo belt, intended to offset its top-heaviness.

(4) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern A: evictedSaint, Andrea, Piratejoe, Powder Miner
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern K: CatamaranCat
(7) B3 'Compensator' 300mm Coastal Gun/Naval Cannon: Kashyyk, khan boyzitbig, Taricus, strongpoint, Nav, 10ebbor10, GUNINANRUNIN
(2) UFS-CV-40 DEVIL WEED Kot's Ramblings Zheleznogorod?: Azzuro, Mulisa
(1) UFS-CV-40 Zheleznogorod B: Kot

Note that some of these features are still asking a lot, especially in the largest ship you've ever laid down. I really should add a difficulty between Very Hard and Impossible.

Very Hard: 5
S-CV-40 'Zheleznogorod' B: This is Forenia's biggest ship yet; an aircraft carrier with two vertically stacked flight decks. Each deck is longer than those of the Wasp Nest, and built of steel. The lower flight deck is directly connected with the hangar deck, and can only launch aircraft. The upper flight deck can launch and recover aircraft with an arrester, which are transported from the hangar deck with a lift. Each flight deck terminates in a "ski ramp". Between some space on the top flight deck, the hangar deck's floor, and cable winches from the hangar deck ceiling, the Zeleznogorod can carry about 36 planes, but only 20 are able to quickly deploy. However, planes stored on the ceiling are prone to swinging about and often damaged during ordinary ship maneuvers. There is a launch assist system, on the lower and longer flight deck only, for heavier aircraft: a "catapult" is loaded with disposable solid-propellant rocket motors. This system, broadly speaking, works: heavier aircraft are accelerated enough to take off, but a launch fills the hangar deck with smoke for a few minutes and the rocket motors are lot more expensive than a steam system. There is a con tower as well, but no radar. The space taken up by the two flight decks, hangar, and living quarters leaves fairly little space for the engines. The ship is armed with a few AS-AC18's for point defense only, and armored with a moderate torpedo belt. It is top-heavy, and neither fast nor maneuverable. [6 Ore, 5 Oil]

[Parsely]

3 TC sounds most urgent. That would boost our fighting ability across all theaters.

Also, I'm glad I didn't push for rocket catapults.

[Azzuro]

>tfw when you actually successfully argue people into going for the Awesome option instead of the Boring option

Anyway, I am against a TC revision. The list up there makes two big assumptions: that we will reduce the Cannalans down to basic Naval Advantage (allowing us to use all 3 TC) and retain the jungle entirely, and I doubt we will do both.

Instead, I would rather un-[Complex] the jet engine, or jet enginise the MTA for (hopefully) the same effect. I am pretty sure the Cannalans are going for a fighter jet this turn, unless Mandemon has gone insane and unveiled his plans for radar-guided SAMs. Seriously, if we were the ones without jets and the Cannalans had one, there would be zero argument about going for a jet of our own (there's probably zero argument in the Cannalan thread already, but whatever).

Anyway, assuming the Cannalans design one, it has a 1/6 chance of being as good as the Thunderbird. But since DEVIL WEED, the Cannalans have an Expense Credit to spend on it. They will spend the Expense Credit on the jet, and the Thunderbird's weakness is repeatedly said to be its lack of numbers. I am reasonably sure that an inferior Cannalan jet, in larger numbers than the Thunderbird, will cause us to lose air superiority and thus the Jungle.

Hence, vote for un-[Complex]ing the jet engine first before the TC revision, please. The TC revision does absolutely nothing if we lose the Jungle, since the extra oil from Mutriqa doesn't bring down the price of anything at all.

[10ebbor10]

Kraftei Concept(Decomplex jet)

Jet engines are fickle beasts. The extremely high temperatures lead to serious damage and short life expectancy. Maintenance has to occur fairly often. The Kraftei involves the separation of the engine from the rest of the plane, msking it a self-contained unit that is very easy to replace. This allows maintenance to very easily and pre-emptively replace used engines with new examples, instead of waiting for the engine to breakdown. Engineers can thrn perform maintenanceon the engine, while the jet is alreqdy back in the air. Refurbished engines can reenter the supply chain without trouble.

AM Radio Jammer

A simple modification of the old AM radios lying around in stock. This radio jammer sends rsndom noise on a wide variety of frequrncies known to be used by Cannalans. The need for synchronization and Amplitude modulation renders their radios enormously vulnerable to noise, while our FM radios should endure.

[evictedSaint]

Putting the 3 TC capability on the Z would work, I think.  We can now use our ultra-effective torpedo bombers on the ocean, as well as our powerful new jet.  That's two turns worth of tech we're applying to the ocean; it should knock them down to Minor or at least Even Naval Supremacy regardless of what they designed.  There's no way they could have Large Advantage.

Without a Large Naval Advantage, they'll have trouble landing in the jungle.  Hell, even if they take a section of jungle, 3 TC won't be wasted - Sensei said new resources may pop soon, and since when is having TC ready for when we gain a resource a bad thing?