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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Chiefwaffles]

Madman, we want to avoid getting an Impossible difficulty. The experience gained from each rolls depends on the difficulty of the design.

[NUKE9.13]

We could explicitely state the internals of the engine use Titanium - this will increase ore cost by 1 until we take the tundra to the south.  Modern jet engines use it to keep the internals from turning to soup.

I don't think we know how to work titanium yet, so that would add another layer of difficulty. Which, to be clear, we do not want to do. In fact, we want to do the opposite, and strip away as many layers of difficulty as we can.

[Khan Boyzitbig]

If we did know then wouldn't we have made the Tiger armour from it? Or at least updated the stuff.

[evictedSaint]

If we strip away too much, we have an unusable design.  I feel as though we SHOULD be ambitious with our research credit - I sincerely doubt stating it uses Titanium would push it from Very Hard to Impossible difficulty.

But if we rename the Thunderbird "Sobriety" (to strike fear in Cannala's heart) and mention the elevated rudder (me 262 had trouble taking off because the turbulance of its engines off the runway would make its rudder ineffective), the gyroscopic reflective sights (old tech, but necessary for accurately aiming at insanely high speeds), and the tricycle landing gear (makes catapults easier, and prevents nose-stands on landing), then I will begrudgingly support that design.

[Powder Miner]

UF-JF-40 'Sobriety' Pattern A w/research credit: (5) evictedSaint, Happerry, Funk, Stabby, Madman198237
UFAF-I-40 'Dart': (1) Strongpoint
UFAF-F-40 'Thunderbird' w/research credit: (10) Azzuro, Andrea, Taricus, NUKE9.13, Kashyyk, Chiefwaffles, Kot, GUNINANRUNIN, 3_14159, Powder Miner

Legalise Marijuana : (2) Khan Boyzitbig, Stabby
NO DEVIL WEED: (2) Voidslayer, Kot
Leave the cannabis discussion for the Strategy Phase (1): Powder Miner

I want to minimize the # of phases used on this if we at all can.
I do like the name Sobriety, though.

[Madman198237]

Here's my vote: Forget the names. Whatever comes out is named Sobriety. I'm going for eS's proposal. It's aerodynamically well-researched and not that ambitious for a research credit. Remember: We plan to need multiple actions on this. This design and probably the revision as well, and unless we get quite the break with the die, it'll be expensive as well. Not, you know, actually Expensive, simply costlier than "Cheap". Significantly.

So put the risk on the table. You win wars by taking risks. If we use this, the air war flip-flops and we are suddenly winning across the board for the rest of the game.

[Powder Miner]

Risks aren't just something you take with no calculation of utility, either. If this takes two turns, then the payoff we get from a more advanced plane is lessened by virtue of having nothing new in place this turn at all.

[Chiefwaffles]

I fully expect that there will be no working design by the end of this turn, regardless of revisions.

We're building a jet, which is already a huge risk. We don't need to unnecessarily add more risk to that.

[NUKE9.13]

We're building a jet, which is already a huge risk. We don't need to unnecessarily add more risk to that.

This. Thanks to the efforts of our former colleague Zanz, Jet Engines are now at the peak of Very Hard difficulty. It is perfectly possible that adding difficulty will push it over into Impossible. After all, IRL it took years to develop them. Now, the nature of the game means we design in three months what took other nations years all the time, but still.

Lets go for the simplest plane (that is still useful) that we can. I am -hesitantly- willing to support Axial Compressors, since they are probably factored into the difficulty of jet engines already, and will thus not add difficulty.

[evictedSaint]

Considering Cannala leapfrogged the flat-top era of carriers on a 1 to get a Lexington-class carrier, I don't think it's unreasonable to want to leapfrog the small twin-engine era of jets to get a large single engine with a research credit.  We have aerodynamics research, German scientists, and an air general.  We're not even angling for a Cheap design!  We're investing in something they won't surpass for years.  Yes it's ambitious, but it's our forté and it makes sense to go for something bigger and better - especially since we're commited to putting the revisions into fixing whatever breaks, so I'd say it's worth it to shoot big.


...but I understand peoples concerns.  I don't think we should give up on ever building the single engine jet, but as I mentioned previously I'll switch my vote if the design makes the requested changes.

[Chiefwaffles]

The thing is, with the smaller jet we're more likely to get more experience. And unless we get a critical fail with our research credit included, we'll be able to build a better less compromising of the design later.

The point now isn't to make a jet interceptor to become our airforce's mainstay. It's to break into the sphere of jets so we can actually do things with them later.

[andrea]

I will point out that 2 autocannons is not so bad of a payload. It should reliably work for a bit. If design goes well and it is powerful enough, we can add a couple more in revision.

[evictedSaint]

I am just concerned with our ADHD - as powder mentioned, we're already looking for ways to minimize our investment in this design.  I am concerned we if we make a modest, unimpressive working jet that doesn't blow Cannala away first try, then people will wander off to design other stuff.  The Sobriety was designed as a "we put this much effort in and we're done - then you can go play with other toys" type of design.  The worst thing we can do is make a plane that is one "step" better than Cannala's Falcon - we'll move on, and two turns later they'll roll out an even better plane and we'll be utterly outclassed once again.

[NUKE9.13]

When has that actually happened? I don't recall us leaving any designs unfinished (with the exception of Blood Eagle, but we have a good reason for that)

[evictedSaint]

The Archer. The Dolphin. The Wasp Nest, when it was apparent we couldn't launch the Haast.  ERA.  These were all designs (except for ERA) that could not perform their intended function, and aside from the Dolphin (which took an embarrassingly long time to fix) they're all still not working correctly.  If we go with the smaller jet design, we need to stay on it until it's *perfect* or else we'll fall into the same trap we usually do.