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Which team did you play in the last game?

Glorious Arstotzka
- 17 (16%)
Glorious Moskurg
- 13 (12.3%)
Ingloriously Didn't Play
- 76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106


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Author Topic: Intercontinental Arms Race: Finale  (Read 599904 times)

NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2385 on: May 22, 2017, 06:41:58 am »

Also, is centrally mounted engine easier or harder than nacelle engines?
I'd like to know this as well. I think that a larger engine is easier, since you don't need as small a compressor, but maybe it would be easier to design the engines separately and attach them to a more conventional frame.
I've voted for the Sobriety, but I could absolutely go for modifications to make it easier/more practical. Going down to two ACs (And 1 MG, perhaps) to reduce weight might make sense. And as mentioned, if nacelles are easier, we should do that.
In fact, just to derail the bandwagon, I'm going to switch my vote to the Dart for now. Though I think we could afford to be a little more ambitious. A bigger plane isn't substantially harder to design, after all, so we could probably put a bit more fuel capacity and more guns on that thing.

Quote
UF-JF-40 'Sobriety' Pattern A w/research credit: (6) evictedSaint, Taricus, Happerry, Powder Miner, Funk, Stabby
UFAF-I-40 'Dart': (2) Strongpoint, NUKE9.13


Legalise Marijuana : (2) Khan Boyzitbig, Stabby

Also, Strongpoint, don't be so pessimistic all the time.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 06:50:10 am by NUKE9.13 »
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Long Live United Forenia!

Azzuro

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2386 on: May 22, 2017, 08:07:12 am »

Guys, I really really hate to say it, but Strongpoint is right here. He's so right it isn't even funny anymore. The Sobriety is beyond the Me 262, and is somewhere in the postwar jet-fighter design space. In an attempt to not be like him and passive-aggressively beat around the bush, here's why:

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Design: UF-JF-40 'Sobriety' Pattern A

Named after Cannala's greatest fear, the United Forenia Jet Fighter 'Sobriety' is Forenia's premiere fighter aircraft, using an innovative new engine design known as a "jet engine".  The Sobriety features a single, large, centrally-mounted jet engine that runs the entire length of the aircraft.

Here's the first, and ultimately biggest problem. Single-engined jet aircraft are quite infeasible at this stage of jet design. The two typically quoted examples of WWII jet-fighters, a.k.a. the ones that saw combat, the Me 262 and Gloster Meteor, were both twin-engined. Early jet engines are simply not reliable enough to base a single-engined fighter on. But Azzuro! you say. How about all those single piston engine fighters we've done? Jet aircraft fly at a higher speed than props, and don't have the same low-speed flight characteristics that a prop fighter can use, even if the engine fails, to make a slow glide back to the runway. And even if they did, jet fighters have higher stall speeds, making any unpowered landing even more risky. Practically, this will translate to losing more pilots to failed engines at every phase from basic training to combat.

Wait! There's a single-engined WWII jet-fighter that also saw combat, the He 162! That was little more of a plane than the Japanese purpose-built kamikazes were, and is the first and last time the term "throwaway fighter" has ever been used to describe a jet fighter. In fact it's probably the real-world fighter most analogous to the "Dart" proposal. But in any case, it's good to bring it up, since the He 162 will figure in my argument later.

The positioning of the engine within the fuselage is also problematic for maintenance. Modern fighter jets do have the engine as "fuselage", but then modern jet engines are literally orders of magnitude more reliable than the ones of our time period. All three of the above fighters have the engine outside of the fuselage for far easier maintenance and replacement, which is absolutely essential if this thing's not going to become a hangar queen. We're not suddenly going to jump to post WWII jet engine technology and the luxuries of engine lives measured in the triple digit hours. Practically, this will translate to either a higher cost for each fighter per-unit, or present maintenance issues as a bug.

Oh, and just as a parting remark, manufacturing such large jets that take up the entire length of the fuselage will be prohibitively expensive. Not to mention, where are you going to put the cockpit and avionics, if not on top, which increases drag? In fact, I don't think a combat jet-fighter with the turbine taking up the entire fuselage length (not counting air intakes) has ever been made successfully.

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The wings are back-swept to increase structural stability and place the center of gravity further forward,

Right, but for the wrong reasons. I have no idea how exactly structural stability will be improved, so someone more knowledgable in aircraft design will have to explain this to me. If the designer meant "structural strength", then wouldn't a non-swept wing be better for having a straight centreline-crossing spar? Oh, and again I have no idea how sweeping the wings back would move the CG further forward. Unless it's meant to move the AC further back, which would make the aircraft too stable for use as a fighter.

In actual life, swept-wing is the correct answer, but for compressibility reasons. Swept wings minimise the wave drag that forms in the transonic range, essential for fighters to operate effectively at those speeds.

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and the elevator is moved further up the rudder to prevent span wise airflow from diminishing its effect.

Again, I have no idea what those words mean, but presumably Sensei's going to do some actual research instead of falling for word vomit. I've never heard span-wise airflow being used in the context of the rudder, though. Is this a cruciform tail?

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These aerodynamic aspects were noticed during numerous wind-tunnel tests; additionally, an air-brake system is installed on the rear of the aircraft that uses hydraulics to extend two panels of the fuselage outwards to dramatically increase drag and slow the aircraft down.

Perhaps the only good part of the design. High-speed fighters engaging with gunfire against low-speed targets can benefit from having the option to reduce speed if necessary.

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Without a propeller necessitating bulky timing gear or heavy rotor shafts, four AC18 20 mm's can be installed in the nose in-line with the aircraft.

The other huge issue with the design. So with the bulky piston engine removed, the solution is to...replace it with four autocannons?!? Okay, a quick reference:

Me 262: 4x30mm cannon
Gloster Meteor: 4x20mm cannon
He 162: 2x20mm cannon, with 120 rounds per gun

So what's the issue? Me 262 and the Meteor both did fine, right? Well, they both had two engines, and double the power. The He 162 is the one you should be looking at here. And again, the Sobriety vastly overestimates the power of its lone engine. I would say it would be very lucky if we rolled a 6 and got a Jumo 004 engine-equivalent, but realistically we'll end up with something like the also contemporary BMW 003. Something like the Derwent is way beyond our reach, first run in 1943.



In summary, this thing Will Not Work As Intended. In fact, while the Haast luckily found a role as a ground-attack plane, I can't imagine to what use a failed jet fighter could double as. I'm writing up a more reasonable proposal now.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 08:10:24 am by Azzuro »
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2387 on: May 22, 2017, 08:35:09 am »

Godsdammit Azzuro, you sniped me; I was just about to post a new proposal based on the Sobriety, and now you've shot holes in it. Back to the drawing board!
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Azzuro

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2388 on: May 22, 2017, 08:35:22 am »

Newer, less outlandish jet fighter design, unfortunately without 1 tonne bomb load.

UFAF-F-40 "Thunderbird"
Named for the distinctive roar of its engines, the Thunderbird represents a fundamental change in the nature of aircraft. It is powered by twin turbojet engines using axial-flow compressors to reduce its drag profile, mounted in underwing nacelles near the wing root for easy maintenance given the revolutionary nature of the engines. The low-mounted wings include a moderate degree of sweep to minimise high-speed drag, wing fences to prevent pitch-up, and inbuilt air-brakes should it need to engage low-speed bombers. For armament, it carries two nose-mounted AS-AC18s and one Sorraia. A retractable tricycle undercarriage arrangement provides greater ease and safety when taking off and landing, as well as minimising the jet blast directed at the runway. This purpose-built fighter is built entirely for speed, with a smooth streamlined canopy that gives the pilot a great field of view, and using aluminium alloys to save weight along with leaving out the manganese bathtub of the Haast, although self-sealing fuel tanks are still included.

If time permits, a foldable-wing design could be attempted, although this is not a priority.

P.S. Wing fences aren't anachronistic, they were invented in 1938! Not to mention, they involve no machinery at all and are really just a tiny fence. On the wing.



Quote
UF-JF-40 'Sobriety' Pattern A w/research credit: (6) evictedSaint, Taricus, Happerry, Powder Miner, Funk, Stabby
UFAF-I-40 'Dart': (2) Strongpoint, NUKE9.13
UFAF-F-40 'Thunderbird': (1) Azzuro


Legalise Marijuana : (2) Khan Boyzitbig, Stabby

EDIT: Nuke, new proposal! Vote this one instead!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 08:18:13 am by Azzuro »
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andrea

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2389 on: May 22, 2017, 08:36:56 am »

Quote
UF-JF-40 'Sobriety' Pattern A w/research credit: (6) evictedSaint, Taricus, Happerry, Powder Miner, Funk, Stabby
UFAF-I-40 'Dart': (2) Strongpoint, NUKE9.13
UFAF-F-40 'Thunderbird': (2) Azzuro, Andrea


Legalise Marijuana : (2) Khan Boyzitbig, Stabby
Can we make it carry 500 kg of bombs, a reinforced bath tub, drop tanks, make it carrier capable, get 4 more autocannons and a couple machineguns? oh, of course also keep excellent manoeuvrability and speed.

Taricus

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2390 on: May 22, 2017, 08:38:55 am »

Quote
UF-JF-40 'Sobriety' Pattern A w/research credit: (5) evictedSaint, Happerry, Powder Miner, Funk, Stabby
UFAF-I-40 'Dart': (2) Strongpoint, NUKE9.13
UFAF-F-40 'Thunderbird' w/research credit: (3) Azzuro, Andrea, Taricus

Legalise Marijuana : (2) Khan Boyzitbig, Stabby
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We sided with the holocaust for a fucking +1 roll

NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2391 on: May 22, 2017, 08:44:28 am »

Quote
UF-JF-40 'Sobriety' Pattern A w/research credit: (5) evictedSaint, Happerry, Powder Miner, Funk, Stabby
UFAF-I-40 'Dart': (1) Strongpoint
UFAF-F-40 'Thunderbird' w/research credit: (4) Azzuro, Andrea, Taricus, NUKE9.13

Legalise Marijuana : (2) Khan Boyzitbig, Stabby
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Long Live United Forenia!

Kashyyk

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2392 on: May 22, 2017, 08:56:41 am »

Quote
UF-JF-40 'Sobriety' Pattern A w/research credit: (5) evictedSaint, Happerry, Powder Miner, Funk, Stabby
UFAF-I-40 'Dart': (1) Strongpoint
UFAF-F-40 'Thunderbird' w/research credit: (5) Azzuro, Andrea, Taricus, NUKE9.13, Kashyyk

Legalise Marijuana : (2) Khan Boyzitbig, Stabby
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Powder Miner

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2393 on: May 22, 2017, 09:08:20 am »

I will wait until evictedSaint comments in return before I choose which jet plane to support, but it at least seems that we're all on the same page about jets, which is good, because if we don't build one and the Cannalans get their heads out of their asses and build one themselves, we're fucked. I would put a bet on them doing so, too, or at least that it's a possibility that would fit with their macro-planning: not only did the Cannalans previously work on jet technology, but they held off of building a plane despite the fact that it would turn the tide, and then got a research credit, which was our behavior too in order to gun for a jet. It's not enough to know for sure, but this jet is on my view pretty crucial.

If we don't have to fix the jet with a revision, I propose that we either revise plastic explosives or cargo parachutes. These both help us in the jungle, the plastic explosives by letting paratroopers blow shit up, the cargo chutes by supplying us and letting us maybe airdrop a vehicle or two, and it works off of the following theory: If we secure air superiority with the fighter, that locks down our important, at-risk advantage. But if we use our revision to directly help in the jungle, not only does that boost us significantly there, but every time we put enough design work into the jungle, we FORCE them to make a response because we shift the combat situation in our favor. If we capture the jungle this turn, that is super super true because we'll force them to have to work on landing troops, while we can then focus navally. But this is the last stretch on the jungle, so if we can let's PLEASE secure it.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 09:17:57 am by Powder Miner »
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Mulisa

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2394 on: May 22, 2017, 10:16:43 am »

Goddamn Cannalan spies! They stole my idea of using an espionage roll to introduce LSD to cannala and did it with weed to Forenia!  >:(
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...so my military were a bunch of bearded mud wrestlers.
Send in the plague kittens!

Glory to Forenia!

Mulisa

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2395 on: May 22, 2017, 10:20:02 am »

Quote
UF-JF-40 'Sobriety' Pattern A w/research credit: (6) evictedSaint, Taricus, Happerry, Powder Miner, Funk, Stabby
UFAF-I-40 'Dart': (2) Strongpoint, NUKE9.13
UFAF-F-40 'Thunderbird': (2) Azzuro, Andrea


Legalise Marijuana : (2) Khan Boyzitbig, Stabby
Can we make it carry 500 kg of bombs, a reinforced bath tub, drop tanks, make it carrier capable, get 4 more autocannons and a couple machineguns? oh, of course also keep excellent manoeuvrability and speed.
Can we make it carry 500 kg of bombs
make it carry 500 kg of bombs
carry 500 kg of bombs
500 kg of bombs
bombs
Have you learned NOTHING of Haast?!?
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...so my military were a bunch of bearded mud wrestlers.
Send in the plague kittens!

Glory to Forenia!

Kot

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2396 on: May 22, 2017, 10:26:45 am »

Make it carry the MLRS!
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Kot finishes his morning routine in the same way he always does, by burning a scale replica of Saint Basil's Cathedral on the windowsill.

andrea

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2397 on: May 22, 2017, 10:28:33 am »

Quote
UF-JF-40 'Sobriety' Pattern A w/research credit: (6) evictedSaint, Taricus, Happerry, Powder Miner, Funk, Stabby
UFAF-I-40 'Dart': (2) Strongpoint, NUKE9.13
UFAF-F-40 'Thunderbird': (2) Azzuro, Andrea


Legalise Marijuana : (2) Khan Boyzitbig, Stabby
Can we make it carry 500 kg of bombs, a reinforced bath tub, drop tanks, make it carrier capable, get 4 more autocannons and a couple machineguns? oh, of course also keep excellent manoeuvrability and speed.
Can we make it carry 500 kg of bombs
make it carry 500 kg of bombs
carry 500 kg of bombs
500 kg of bombs
bombs
Have you learned NOTHING of Haast?!?

that was the joke...

Khan Boyzitbig

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2398 on: May 22, 2017, 10:36:58 am »

Here is an idea I just had:

UF-RB-40 Murderboat

A small 35m long boat that is propelled by a rocket engine mounted on the rear of the boat and designed to skim along the surface via hydrofoils. Armed with a single bumblebee to prevent the boat taking off and to allow it to do some damage to Cannalan warships, there is also a forward mounted Dolphin and an M1 nest on top of the cabin. Lightly Armoured too.

Lets see them outrun us now.
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Mulisa

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Autumn 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2399 on: May 22, 2017, 10:53:13 am »

Quote
UF-JF-40 'Sobriety' Pattern A w/research credit: (6) evictedSaint, Taricus, Happerry, Powder Miner, Funk, Stabby
UFAF-I-40 'Dart': (2) Strongpoint, NUKE9.13
UFAF-F-40 'Thunderbird': (2) Azzuro, Andrea


Legalise Marijuana : (2) Khan Boyzitbig, Stabby
Can we make it carry 500 kg of bombs, a reinforced bath tub, drop tanks, make it carrier capable, get 4 more autocannons and a couple machineguns? oh, of course also keep excellent manoeuvrability and speed.
Can we make it carry 500 kg of bombs
make it carry 500 kg of bombs
carry 500 kg of bombs
500 kg of bombs
bombs
Have you learned NOTHING of Haast?!?

that was the joke...
Yeah I noticed after re-reading it just after the post, but couldn't be arsed "removing" the post by writing some unrelated nonsense in it instead.

In my defense, after how much salt I generated after the Haast I've been rather sensitive to bombs and fighters.  :P
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...so my military were a bunch of bearded mud wrestlers.
Send in the plague kittens!

Glory to Forenia!
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