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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

That leave the light cruiser a little under-gunned for it's size. But it does mean the Cannalan navy will have a hell of a time with all those shots.

Well to be fair their corsair destroyer uses a pair of 3" guns (which is actually even smaller than the 90mm bumblebee guns), while they use 6" (152.5mm) guns on their 'Kraken' ironclad (4 guns) and their battleship (18 guns!), though admittedly with some pretty advanced aim assistance. Probably the only reason they aren't also considered undergunned is that they mount absurd numbers of the things onto their ships and have anti-ship AP shells in common use. Plus the fact our only boats don't actually have any armor.

So 130 mms could do pretty well thanks to the assistance from the Rocket-Propelled Shells?

[stabbymcstabstab]

That leave the light cruiser a little under-gunned for it's size. But it does mean the Cannalan navy will have a hell of a time with all those shots.

Well to be fair their corsair destroyer uses a pair of 3" guns (which is actually even smaller than the 90mm bumblebee guns), while they use 6" (152.5mm) guns on their 'Kraken' ironclad (4 guns) and their battleship (18 guns!), though admittedly with some pretty advanced aim assistance. Probably the only reason they aren't also considered undergunned is that they mount absurd numbers of the things onto their ships and have anti-ship AP shells in common use. Plus the fact our only boats don't actually have any armor.

So 130 mms could do pretty well thanks to the assistance from the Rocket-Propelled Shells?

that would be a rocket propelled shell that is a little over 5 inches, that means it could punch through 100mm of armor in close ranges or 80mm-ish around the ranges we are fighting at. Now attach rockets it, those guns would actually be top of the line early war.

[Parsely]

For the record, aircraft carriers WILL increase the effectiveness of planes:

[6:29 PM] GUNINANRUNIN: @everyone
[6:28 PM] Sensei: Carriers increase the effectiveness of planes in naval combat, even if planes normally could fly there
[6:30 PM] GUNINANRUNIN: it also says so in the OP under Landing Strips
[6:30 PM] GUNINANRUNIN: "Depending on the circumstances, having a landing strip close to the region in which combat is occurring may grant a bonus to air combat, especially in the case of aircraft carriers."

[Light forger]

'Wasp Nest': (8) GUNINANRUNIN, Khan Boyzitbig,evictedSaint, Helmacon, Andrea, Kashyyk, Happerry, Azzuro
'Cavalier': (5) Baffler, Powder Miner, Taricus, Zanzetkuken, Stabby
'B3 Demolisher': (0)
'Hornet Nest': (0)
Razor's Edge (Carrier, CV-38L): (1) Madman198237
UFS-NFB-38-W 'Hellion': (1) Lightforger

Corrected vote total as stabby dropped my vote(it's not going to win but, it annoyed me nonetheless). Also FYI in the attachment bar you can disable smileys to stop 8) from turning into one.

[stabbymcstabstab]

Corrected vote total as stabby dropped my vote(it's not going to win but, it annoyed me nonetheless). Also FYI in the attachment bar you can disable smileys to stop 8) from turning into one.

Oops, sorry I grabbed the latest vote box that appeared.

[Parsely]

Observation:
Assuming our CV works as well as I think it will, they're going to try and counter our CV next turn. If they build submarines, it would take a full turn to counter them: a revision to convert the Firecracker into an ASW mortar to mount on the Archer, and a design to make sonar.

[Madman198237]

'Wasp Nest': (9) GUNINANRUNIN, Khan Boyzitbig,evictedSaint, Helmacon, Andrea, Kashyyk, Happerry, Azzuro, Madman198237
'Cavalier': (5) Baffler, Powder Miner, Taricus, Zanzetkuken, Stabby
'B3 Demolisher': (0)
'Hornet Nest': (0)
Razor's Edge (Carrier, CV-38L, very lightweight and simple):
UFS-NFB-38-W 'Hellion': (1) Lightforger

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Here's a number of points in favor of utilizing the Cruiser rather than utilizing a Carrier.

• The Carrier is a major jump up in terms of how big of a boat we have made.  This is likely to cause a number of problems.
• The closest thing we have, the ARAC, has a cost high enough to be a National Effort, indicating the Carrier may be at a similar level.
• Compounding that second point, there is a good chance our first attempt at making a lift for our planes is going to end up as 'Complex,' which will push our Carriers to the useless theoretical.
• The current supporting craft of our Carriers is completely lacking.  Given that their ships are likely to be far faster than ours, and they have experience with a wide variety of scouting craft, they will likely find us easily and run any Carrier we make down.  We could avoid this with better support craft, but again, our current go down in one hit.
• If we wait a turn, then we would be able to get the increased Ore from the British colony we captured (if we make a large aerial transport/sea transport with a capability of 3 this turn or next), then we reduce the likelihood of the Carrier being in the Theoretical state.
• Further, given the Americans backed our revolution, we can levy that in order to have an easier time gaining the Research Credit, which gives us a double roll for the Carriers, allowing for us to be more ambitious.
• Further, if we make a Carrier NOW, then they will make their own next turn, which, due to their far greater experience with ships, will outclass ours in a turn.
• Further, making a Carrier now will vastly reduce favor of doing it AGAIN next turn, making it more likely that we will use the Research Credit on something less valuable.
• Plus, making it next turn will bring it in as the HF-32 becomes cheap, making a compound double strike.
• The Cruiser will give us experience in armoring our ships, allowing for us to armor the Carrier when we get it so it doesn't sink as easily.
• The Cruiser will give us experience in making larger ships, allowing for us to have an easier time making the Carrier's increased size.
• The Cruiser will provide us with a 130mm gun we can equip to our destroyers due to them being designed to fit a 130mm gun, meaning it would improve our existing ships as well.
• We know they won't be making a sea-based design as a result of our advantage.  Further, we DO know what design they will make, as they are going to want to turn around their fortunes in the Northern Island due to us starting to get really close to their main islands.  Therefore, we can prepare for a Carrier thanks to our massive advantage on that front meaning at best they could only Stalemate us.  In fact, we can probably force them to spend ANOTHER action up there if we use our revision to make a transport plane for the additional purpose of mass dropping paratroopers.
• Considering we got a 6 on the Revision, our next roll is effectively certain to be lower.  The Cruiser is likely to be a Medium, increasing our odds of still getting a good ship as a result.
• Edit: Given our advantage in the air being a cause, one of the likely design/revisions they may do is to try to create RADAR, which would screw over a carrier as it comes out.

[Light forger]

My argument for the Hellion over the carrier or the cruiser:
The first and biggest issue is we don't want to be bogged down in the jungle. If we focus solely on dealing with the sea we run the risk of a solid fighter or AA gun breaking our advantage. Further more to this point without effective torpedoes I doubt we can further reduce our losses at sea. Yes we can use a revision on it but, that's rather risky as rolling low(or high with a larger difficult) means we would need that revision to fix things. Worse case with the hellion(like a 1) we end up with a mediocre fighter that helps a little bit and we still can use the revision to fix our torpedoes. The cruiser has other issues the biggest one is it's really hard to beat them at sea using a normal 'big guns' navy. I'm 99% sure they picked the navy leader so unless our ship really outclass them we are going to have a very hard time deal with them there. Our number one goal should be forcing their hand into ground/naval based AA defenses. Once we do that we are just a high altitude bomber and some patience away from winning. After all you need to rest somewhere and it's really hard to do that when you get spotted by a recon plane and then get carpet bombed.

[Madman198237]

Lot's people have posted in support of the carrier so far, but here's what I've got as far as bonuses:

It will increase our aircraft effectiveness in the ocean, according to the OP.
It will allow us a naval presence without much risk, as carriers can use their aircraft to see much further than a regular ship, and therefore evade detection, even while attacking ships.
Given the research credit, or not, we need an advantage sooner rather than later. We can't beat their navy with guns. So we must play to our strengths and do it with planes. A carrier design, sooner, gives us more turns to hammer out the design. The resource issues are not immediate, we'll get our transport ASAP. But we NEED some way to hold our own at sea. Early game is the BEST time to get theoretical results, to make prototypes, to revise them, because we're shaping strategy right now, not winning the war.
This makes us proactive, not reactive. It's a logical step, but we can only guess their strategy, and assume that it probably isn't built around taking out new carriers that don't exist yet. So we gain advantages from working like this. Also, it gives a platform for the torpedoes we want to revise this turn. It might allow us to start killing their vessels.
This carrier design means we don't have to catch up to their huge lead in gunboat design. We go in a different direction, and gain the lead ourselves.

[helmacon]

'Wasp Nest': (8 ) GUNINANRUNIN, Khan Boyzitbig,evictedSaint, Andrea, Kashyyk, Happerry, Azzuro, Madman198237
'Cavalier': (6) Baffler, Powder Miner, Taricus, Zanzetkuken, Stabby, Helmacon
'B3 Demolisher': (0)
'Hornet Nest': (0)
Razor's Edge (Carrier, CV-38L, very lightweight and simple):
UFS-NFB-38-W 'Hellion': (1) Lightforger

[evictedSaint]

I firmly believe that building yet another escort for a carrier that doesn't exist yet is the wrong move.  I'm doubtful the bonus we'll get for procrastinating on building the carrier will be worth it, since either way it'll start off as a modified cargoship.

Carriers are better at hiding and sending planes from really far away, so the issue of going toe-to-toe isn't as big as it's being made out to be.  I feel as though waiting a turn and building something we intend to immediately make obsolete is based on the fear of taking on a big project.  We have to start somewhere, and a turn from now (or two, or three at this rate) is just wasted opportunity.  We could spend a dozen turns trying to get a bunch of +1's to our roll, but ultimately the best advantage is to outright attempt it.

[Parsely]

Right. We need to see how the CV does before we can decide what it needs to be protected against.

[Baffler]

Our escorts are pretty shit. They have a bigger gun than the enemy destroyer (though their AP shells, actual armor, and bonus from their experienced admiralty gives them an edge) but they're still underpowered compared to the enemy's main warship, which hilariously is still an ironclad because they never needed anything better, and they're crippled, sunk, or even break apart after a single hit. We need a screen that's actually good to match their Krakens, and more importantly engage their AA cruisers, before we can even think of fielding something as slow, expensive, and vulnerable as an aircraft carrier to match their own capital ships. That, and it'll give us the technology and experience to lay down a large ship like that with less risk even if we don't get the research credit.

Besides, the only warship aircraft carriers rendered obsolete was the battleship, as evidenced by the fact that cruisers and destroyers remained and remain in regular service in large numbers by every navy in the world worth speaking of.

[helmacon]

Carriers are better at hiding and sending planes from really far away,

If this is the plan, what advantage does a carrier hold over launching planes from the shore? The whole point is to support and enable our other craft when engaging thier fleets.