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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Madman198237]

EMP is useless when almost everything is mechanical or exceedingly simple in an electrical sense. There are no computers in any of our ships.

So, carriers with the torpedo revisions have the means to break the backs of their warships. But a light cruiser is just going to be outnumbered and likely outgunned as well. We don't have the experience yet. So wait on it. Change the game, get some carriers out there now.

Carriers RIGHT NOW let us use all of our aircraft far into the sea without making them more expensive or less numerous. It gives us a platform to strike all their ships at.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

I'm on board with that. Do we have a plane that's big enough though? AFAIK we only have the equivalent of a medium bomber, nothing real heavy.

We revise our bombers to be bigger and remove the bomb bay.  Should be trivial to do so.

@Gunin carriers do need escorts, and we need better munitions for the bombers to do much against their carriers.

Hence, a proposal to get a decent gun cruiser to compliment our future carriers:

UFS-CL-38 Pattern A 'Stalwart-Class' Light Cruiser:
Description: Built to compliment our destroyer flotillas and to provide some meatier gun support for them, the Stalwart is still a light, fast vessel that is lightly armoured on both the deck and the hull. The main guns are directed by a targeting system similar to that of the archer. If the designers have the time, a torpedo belt is included on the armour scheme. Also includes the radio equipment as standard
-Dimensions: 160m long, 16m beam, 5.5m Draught
-Armament: 8 150mm 'Grenadier' Cannons, in four turrets (2 fore and 2 aft in superfiring position), 24 x AC18 Autocannons, 6x 'Dolphin' Torpedo Launchers
-Armour: Deck and Turrets: 25mm. Belt: 51mm. All in face-hardened steel.
-Engine: 4 Boilers feeding Two Steam turbines

Remember Taricus, Sensei had said that we can only upgun from existing by 30% if we are making a new gun as part of a design.

[Baffler]

EMP is useless when almost everything is mechanical or exceedingly simple in an electrical sense. There are no computers in any of our ships.

So, carriers with the torpedo revisions have the means to break the backs of their warships. But a light cruiser is just going to be outnumbered and likely outgunned as well. We don't have the experience yet. So wait on it. Change the game, get some carriers out there now.

Carriers RIGHT NOW let us use all of our aircraft far into the sea without making them more expensive or less numerous. It gives us a platform to strike all their ships at.

They don't have more resources than us. We're outproducing them, in fact, since we get oil from the desert but they don't get any ore from the jungle. Our competition for medium warships is a literal ironclad.

Remember Taricus, Sensei had said that we can only upgun from existing by 30% if we are making a new gun as part of a design.

Fixed mine as well.

UFS-CC-39 Pattern E "Cavalier"
Description: A medium sized cruiser with medium armor at the surface and a light torpedo belt, intended to to support fleet actions or operate independently. It is equipped with two pairs of twin-mounted 130mm gun turrets, with one pair at the bow and the other at the stern. The centermost turret on each side is taller than its twin to allow firing straight on and to reduce interference in the flight of the shells. It is further equipped with a pair of bumblebee guns at port and starboard positions next to the conning tower, with a pair of AS-AC18 autocannons on either side, to defend against enemy aircraft. It is powered by 4 steam turbines identical to those used on the Archer class, fed by four 3-drum water boilers.

[Powder Miner]

But we aren't going into the far sea and won't be for a couple of turns, since we're still consolidating closer fronts. You're talking about striking their ships with our planes, but that is precisely what we're already doing. We do not need to build carriers this exact turn.

I'll throw a vote for the Cavalier.

[Parsely]

We're still fighting navally and with aviation in our close seas, what advantage do carriers actually give us this turn? We need to challenge the Khorne, but we aren't. We should spring for something that will be helpful. I agree carriers should be art of our overall plan but now's not the turn for them.

I don't know enough about criisers to say if the Cavalier is a good one, but I like the idea of cruiser.

CVs allow us to actually attack the enemy without getting cheesed by their big guns. There's a reason battleships went obsolete, and that's because of carrier-borne aircraft.

We already saw that trying to compete with their artillery ships by making our own artillery ships is counterproductive and will only lead to small gains. We need to stop trying to beat the pirates at their own game by trying to challenge their superior artillery, and develop a hard counter that plays to our strengths, not theirs. The CV is the answer.

E: @PowderMiner The map isn't to scale. I think the distance between islands is greater than you imagine.

[Powder Miner]

I don't know what you mean, GUNIN. Our planes aren't getting cheesed by the big guns as is, but barely-escorted carriers without the firepower to sink their ships almost certainly will.

Cruisers aren't battleships.

[Madman198237]

Gun-toting cruisers went obsolete except for commerce raiding and occasional close-in gunfire support on amphibious landings...which we're not facing right now.

[Taricus]

Well, we aren't at that point yet, and there's hardly an unfriendly craft in the sky.

[Baffler]

We're still fighting navally and with aviation in our close seas, what advantage do carriers actually give us this turn? We need to challenge the Khorne, but we aren't. We should spring for something that will be helpful. I agree carriers should be art of our overall plan but now's not the turn for them.

I don't know enough about criisers to say if the Cavalier is a good one, but I like the idea of cruiser.

CVs allow us to actually attack the enemy without getting cheesed by their big guns. There's a reason battleships went obsolete, and that's because of carrier-borne aircraft.

We already saw that trying to compete with their artillery ships by making our own artillery ships is counterproductive and will only lead to small gains. We need to stop trying to beat the pirates at their own game by trying to challenge their superior artillery, and develop a hard counter that plays to our strengths, not theirs. The CV is the answer.

E: @PowderMiner The map isn't to scale. I think the distance between islands is greater than you imagine.

Our first artillery ship was bad because it was our first artillery ship, and even it can be brought essentially to parity with their own destroyer by using a revision to give it the guns it was originally intended to use.

Gun-toting cruisers went obsolete except for commerce raiding and occasional close-in gunfire support on amphibious landings...which we're not facing right now.

It was missiles and jet fighters that did it, not propeller planes. Battleships went out of fashion for capital ships, but modern navies to this day still use large numbers of destroyer and cruiser sized vessels.

[Kashyyk]

'Wasp Nest': (7) GUNINANRUNIN, Khan Boyzitbig, evictedSaint, Madman198237, Helmacon, Andrea, Kashyyk

We may already be able to reach them with our planes, but having a mobile airbase closer to the action means a shorter turn around time for our planes, which is the effectively the same as having more of them.

[Madman198237]

As missile boats, commerce raiders, and submarine killers, yes. But you need ships destroyed or ordinance delivered, and you call up the nearest aircraft carrier for an airstrike.

[Powder Miner]

Yeah, cruisers started going obsolete... after World War II.

GUNIN, I'm going entirely off of our turns right now. We don't have a plane deployment problem.

[Parsely]

I don't know what you mean, GUNIN. Our planes aren't getting cheesed by the big guns as is, but barely-escorted carriers without the firepower to sink their ships almost certainly will.

Cruisers aren't battleships.

Our aircraft has a limited range, which means our planes are only engaging ships within a few tens of kilometers of the islands, which means our planes are not keeping commerce from being raided most of the time, they're just keeping the ships closest to home safe. It also means that we can have air support in places where we don't have an airfield nearby, and also that aircraft can respond way more quickly than if they have to fly all the way from Forenia.

I think we need more clarification from Sensei on the distances involved to be absolutely sure one way or another though. He said ships are being killed by planes, but not where, and it's obviously not enough to turn their advantage around.

[Happerry]

'Wasp Nest': (8) GUNINANRUNIN, Khan Boyzitbig,evictedSaint, Madman198237, Helmacon, Andrea, Kashyyk, Happerry

Carrier sounds good, and then hopefully a Torpedo Revision this turn.

[Powder Miner]

But what you're saying isn't actually based on any evidence within the turns -- in fact, you're being contradicted by the actual series of events. Our air superiority was plainly stated to be a major factor in our recent naval performance.