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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Kashyyk]

They've not got any experience in ASW, so we're on an even level there. Further, our sub will never be hard countered, because that's just not how the game (or Sensei) works. Look at their helicopter versus the plethora of anti-air equipment we have for example.

[Man of Paper]

But that's GM bias

Jokes aside, it can't really hurt to be ambitious with our sub if it's going to take a couple actions to get where we want it regardless. We can either play it safe and get an outdated world war 2 foundation to work off of for a couple actions until we get something modernized, or we can go for broke and hope for a high roll giving us something decent - or get a low roll and spend a few actions fixing it anyways.

At this point I feel like our biggest risk is being too cautious and taking too small a step in a new direction when Cannala seems to progress with longer strides at every turn.

(0) UFS-DDG-45 'Onegin' Guided Missile Destroyer:
(0) UFS-CG-45 'Bogdanov' Guided Missile Cruiser :
(4) UFN-SS-45 Archer II: Kashyyk, Cnidaros, ConscriptFive, NAV
(1) UFS-GMC-45 "Outmatch" Pattern A: Happerry
(0) UFN-SSG-45 Sobriety:
(3) UFN-USB-45 "Sobriety" Pattern B: eS, voidslayer, MoP

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

(0) UFS-DDG-45 'Onegin' Guided Missile Destroyer:
(0) UFS-CG-45 'Bogdanov' Guided Missile Cruiser :
(4) UFN-SS-45 Archer II: Kashyyk, Cnidaros, ConscriptFive, NAV
(1) UFS-GMC-45 "Outmatch" Pattern A: Happerry
(0) UFN-SSG-45 Sobriety:
(3) UFN-USB-45 "Sobriety" Pattern B: eS, voidslayer, Mop, zanzetkuken

I'm still in the 'screw it, go for broke' camp when it comes to fighting Canalla. Done good for us the last two turns at least.

[VoidSlayer]

If we go full torpedo sub, do you think we can revise a heavier or longer range torpedo?

[evictedSaint]

Itd be better to spend a design; sonar and wire guidance in addition to the larger size.  The Dolphin would be within depth-charge catapult range, and they have plenty of idle patrol boats >.>

Ooooooor we could have it rely primarily on ASM's with torps as a backup...

(0) UFS-DDG-45 'Onegin' Guided Missile Destroyer:
(0) UFS-CG-45 'Bogdanov' Guided Missile Cruiser :
(4) UFN-SS-45 Archer II: Kashyyk, Cnidaros, ConscriptFive, NAV
(1) UFS-GMC-45 "Outmatch" Pattern A: Happerry
(0) UFN-SSG-45 Sobriety:
(4) UFN-USB-45 "Sobriety" Pattern B: eS, voidslayer, Mop, zanzetkuken

[Cnidaros]

Itd be better to spend a design; sonar and wire guidance in addition to the larger size.  The Dolphin would be within depth-charge catapult range, and they have plenty of idle patrol boats >.>

Ooooooor we could have it rely primarily on ASM's with torps as a backup...

Guess who doesn't have depth-charge catapults? The Cannalans.

Look, if the Sobriety ends up carrying two Saltseekers it's not going to be worth it and we should just go for a missile cruiser/Saltseeker cheapening this turn.

You say that going for broke is a good idea. I disagree. I can only think of a few places where we went for broke: the first jet (Thunderbird), where we already had loads of plane experience, the Saltseeker, where we had guided missile experience from the stolen Piracy Warning, the first aircraft carrier (Wasp Nest), which was quite bad and only got saved by rolling a 6, along with the fact that Cannala had no carriers then. Even then, we didn't jump in and go straight for the carrier with no ship experience, we made a destroyer (Archer) first.

Alright, fair point.

I dont like that it's not using any of the missile tech we've been developing, and that it promises several more turns of actions before it can compete with Cannala's inevitable countermeasures, but fair point. : (

Where do you get that it's going to require "several more turns of actions"? If anything, the Sobriety will screw up on its roll and be the one requiring a revision to urgently fix, because it's more difficult. I see that it still wants passive IR detection for some reason, maybe looking out Cannalan sailors using night vision? Also, the entire point of going for an attack sub now is to build up experience for a missile sub later, I haven't forgotten that. When the Cannalans roll out depth charges and sonar, we'll make a new missile submarine.

Metagaming is king. If we go for a missile sub straight off the bat, not only will it be subpar (haha!), the Cannalans will immediately begin designing to counter it. If we go for a torpedo sub first, they'll go for counters such as depth charges, hedgehog launchers and sonar, which are of extremely limited value against our later missile subs. I'm not against missile subs, but leaping to one as our very first sub design is shooting ourselves in the foot. Torpedo subs are just as effective as missile subs right now, given that the Cannalans don't have sonar or hedgehog launchers.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

We're not going in with no experience.  We've already made the Archer, haven't we?

[Sensei]

Announcement: The Endgame

It occurred to be that I meant to put this at the end of the last battle report, but I forgot. Rather than putting it off entirely until next turn, I'll tell you now so you can take it into consideration from the design phase if necessary. From now on, all territory gains will be doubled, up to the next region border. Warfare is becoming every more mobile, and attrition of your forces is beginning to reduce the size of armies on both sides, so more ground is gained and lost for every battle fought. This means that some entire regions could fall in a season, and the fighting has begun to feel much closer to your ultimate objective, the enemy's capitol- but they will need less time to reach yours, as well.

Good luck.

[Parsely]

Yeah I don't see the point in IR either, either side will detect one another with radar before anything else. I don't see any benefit in making a submarine with torpedoes at all. Saltseekers have a max range of 48km, which is approximately the range of surface search radar, so our subs will be able to launch ASMs before the enemy is in visual range, so ASWs aren't even much of a threat if you have missiles. ASWs become scary when you have to get into torpedo range (about 3-5km if you don't want to miss) of a convoy or fleet with escorts.

E: Of course, that's ignoring air-launched ASWs. That's the most likely counter if we get a missile sub, as opposed to ship-launched ASWs, and without an air-launched sonar solution (which probably also requires a special aircraft) that only helps air patrols kill subs they stumble upon, it won't be useful for counterattacking a sub that's just initiated an attack.

(0) UFS-DDG-45 'Onegin' Guided Missile Destroyer:
(0) UFS-CG-45 'Bogdanov' Guided Missile Cruiser :
(4) UFN-SS-45 Archer II: Kashyyk, Cnidaros, ConscriptFive, NAV
(1) UFS-GMC-45 "Outmatch" Pattern A: Happerry
(0) UFN-SSG-45 Sobriety:
(5) UFN-USB-45 "Sobriety" Pattern B: eS, voidslayer, Mop, zanzetkuken, Parsely

[Happerry]

(0) UFS-DDG-45 'Onegin' Guided Missile Destroyer:
(0) UFS-CG-45 'Bogdanov' Guided Missile Cruiser :
(5) UFN-SS-45 Archer II: Kashyyk, Cnidaros, ConscriptFive, NAV, Happerry
(0) UFS-GMC-45 "Outmatch" Pattern A:
(0) UFN-SSG-45 Sobriety:
(5) UFN-USB-45 "Sobriety" Pattern B: eS, voidslayer, Mop, zanzetkuken, Parsely

Basic sub this turn, and then next turn we jump to the boomer sub because even if the Archer II rolls crap we'll get experience from it.

[Man of Paper]

But if the Sobriety rolls crap then we have two sunk designs whereas we could do the Sobriety now, and we still have the ability to throw another design (+revisions) down on it should it roll poorly enough. That way we either get Sobriety on a good roll, or get experience even if it's crap, plus have the basic design of what we're going for already accomplished.

[Parsely]

Unlike a sub armed with only torps, a sub with missiles will also be potent when mixed with our other vessels, it will have utility in a fleet missile frigate role even if it does get countered by ASWs.

So yeah I don't see the benefit of delaying a missile sub design until after the enemy has countered with ASWs, at which point enthusiasm for submarines will be dead if the enemy rolls well and we don't.

[Kashyyk]

I'm voting for the Archer primarily for the experience. I'm absolutely certain that Cannala will spend at least one design on counters to it, but they'll only be countering the side effect as far as I'm concerned (ie, the combat effectiveness of the sub). When we build the missile sub next turn, we'll be using the attack sub's experience and be producing something that ignores their first set of ASW. Every ship sunk by the Archer is just an added bonus as far as I'm concerned, and every action they spend countering the Archer is an action of theirs wasted.

The Archer is not, and has never been our end goal, it is merely a very useful stepping stone.

[Taricus]

(0) UFS-DDG-45 'Onegin' Guided Missile Destroyer:
(0) UFS-CG-45 'Bogdanov' Guided Missile Cruiser :
(6) UFN-SS-45 Archer II: Kashyyk, Cnidaros, ConscriptFive, NAV, Happerry, Taricus
(0) UFS-GMC-45 "Outmatch" Pattern A:
(0) UFN-SSG-45 Sobriety:
(5) UFN-USB-45 "Sobriety" Pattern B: eS, voidslayer, Mop, zanzetkuken, Parsely

[Cnidaros]

But if the Sobriety rolls crap then we have two sunk designs whereas we could do the Sobriety now, and we still have the ability to throw another design (+revisions) down on it should it roll poorly enough. That way we either get Sobriety on a good roll, or get experience even if it's crap, plus have the basic design of what we're going for already accomplished.

I dunno what to make of this reasoning. So you want us to try two rolls at a Very Hard Design, instead of two at Hard? With the interim being a useless submarine, exactly when we need to prevent the Cannalans from taking two bites of our homeland and being in position to win the game the turn after?

Anyway, I don't think the Endgame announcement really changes our calculus. We still need to wrest Naval Advantage from the Cannalans to hold both our shores and Vlanlados. I considered writing up a jungle design to get us the last two quarters of the northern jungle and an extra ore resource, but on checking it seems like only the VVF fighter and Sea Lift get cheapened by having 6 instead of 5 ore, so it's not really worth it. I don't think the Sea Lift being cheaper has any effect too.