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Which team did you play in the last game?

Glorious Arstotzka
- 17 (16%)
Glorious Moskurg
- 13 (12.3%)
Ingloriously Didn't Play
- 76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106


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Author Topic: Intercontinental Arms Race: Finale  (Read 602418 times)

Kot

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6705 on: July 14, 2018, 08:40:32 am »

And the Garlics... I want to like a Salamander Shilka with a RADAR and IR sensor, but that's going to be a VERY HARD roll for just a revision.  I'm getting superstitious seeing how often we've been crit failing revisions.  As flawed as our current Shilka is, it's probably good enough for now especially if the SAM lives up to its promises.  The NVD is something we should have made long ago instead of trying to steal the Aswang.  Unfortunately, knowing how those geeks are with electronics, they'd just roll out light amp NVGs the next turn.
We already have the radar and capabilities of linking it, it's just a matter of putting it inside the vehicle, which we should be able to, considering we put it on planes. The only difficulty comes from the IR sensor. If they roll out light amp, they probably need to roll well on a design, and... then we can steal that. :P

Now the RPG is something we literally haven't touched this entire war.  It was great for it's time, but doesn't hit hard enough against modern armor.  It's obsolescence why the HKII is being forced into some really insane solutions (see eS's research credit story).  Now we've made Sarukh rockets, Artemis rockets, Piracy Warning missiles, Saltseeker missiles, and Noose missiles.  We should be able to make a dumbfire manportable AT rocket in our sleep.  Maybe we'll roll a 1 and just get a bigger warhead on the old launcher.  I'd be happy with that.
This is my problem, we are good at missiles, so... I think we should dedicate a design to it. Unless something big happens, even next turn design. Make radar-guided ones, with interchangeable guidance in IR for Bulls, maybe even capable of shooting down the goddamn helis.
If we roll 1 at the Garlic, we will probably... at worst get either the turret on the Salamander and maybe some armour on the gun, which will already help the vehicle IMMENSELY, as it will now be able to be used against ground targets without endangering the gunner that much. If we roll a 2, we might get the radar inside it, so we now have a proper Shilka firing on the move. If we get better rolls, we will probably make the IR thing easily... or maybe we will get the IR thing on low rolls, but won't be able to put it on Salamander, who knows.

The primary reason that modern militaries use AFVs as light tanks is cost. They don't want to pay for yet another armored platform. That doesn't bother us, unless we have problems with action economy, which we don't really seem to.
Except... we do. We have tons of things that we probably should have (Night Vision, amongst others) because Cannalans are insane with the stuff they put out, so we have tons of tech to catch up to, and we will need designs and revisions to counter their things each turn. We are the ones behind, not them, because we failed so many designs, not them.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 08:48:35 am by Kot »
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Madman198237

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6706 on: July 14, 2018, 08:48:10 am »

A 2 is not going to fix the Long Shot system, so it's going to turn into a Shilka that knows when enemies are coming, not one that's capable of tracking/firing with just the radar guidance.
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Kot

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6707 on: July 14, 2018, 08:52:34 am »

A 2 is not going to fix the Long Shot system, so it's going to turn into a Shilka that knows when enemies are coming, not one that's capable of tracking/firing with just the radar guidance.
It's not meant to, we have SAM for planes. The gun still can shoot at helicopters, but now it's going to be actually useful against enemy ground targets due to having armour, and that is why we get the IR sensor. When enemy dudes with NV creep up, they will get lit the heck up, and the whole thing is not even useless at day.
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Madman198237

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6708 on: July 14, 2018, 08:59:24 am »

"If we roll a 2, we might get the radar inside it, so we now have a proper Shilka firing on the move."

This is the comment I was arguing against, not anything else. Though if you want to nullify enemy IR, maybe you should ONLY use the IR-tracking auto-aim system, instead of adding a radar to a Salamander and claiming that it's going to allow the thing to fire on the move and stuff.

Oh hey, I missed your earlier comment. Having a good light tank would be something that nobody has apparently tried to do in either game, which is a technological improvement even though it doesn't necessarily seem like it.
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Kot

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6709 on: July 14, 2018, 09:15:40 am »

"If we roll a 2, we might get the radar inside it, so we now have a proper Shilka firing on the move."

This is the comment I was arguing against, not anything else. Though if you want to nullify enemy IR, maybe you should ONLY use the IR-tracking auto-aim system, instead of adding a radar to a Salamander and claiming that it's going to allow the thing to fire on the move and stuff.
You're misunderstanding. While maybe firing on the move could be possible, which I doubt, I mean that currently Sewing Machine requires another truck to be hooked up to it, which essentially means with radar it's only static defense. If we put a radar in Salamander, it will be able to move together with our attacks and detect, stop and then kill enemy helicopters, not to mention it should at least detect enemy planes so people go for cover. We don't have a mobile ground-based radar, and we could use one. I honestly don't believe putting a radar inside Salamander is anywhere close to being hard. We already have non-complex radar that we somehow fit inside a plane, which, I believe, is going to have much less space inside than an APC designed to carry fourteen dudes with equipment. If our radar doesn't fit in the space for fourteen dudes (or rather, like, eight, since we have to store ammo somewhere) then how the fuck did we fit it on a plane?

Oh hey, I missed your earlier comment. Having a good light tank would be something that nobody has apparently tried to do in either game, which is a technological improvement even though it doesn't necessarily seem like it.
Light tank is not going to be as break-through as tons of other things, and I don't believe it will specifically help in the jungle that much if it keeps getting rocketed in the ass standing in the base at night. Sewing Machine guns probably can deal with everything except the Bull, and even then it's going to probably make the Bull crew pretty anxious because it will absolutely destroy their vision and possibly mobility kill it by destroying the tracks and wheels. Not saying the Garlic is a better light tank than whatever you want, but it serves a lot more purposes without being exceptionally harder.
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Cnidaros

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6710 on: July 14, 2018, 09:21:45 am »

Quote from: reeeeebox
(1) UF-NVD-44 "Garlic": Kashyyk
(4) UF-SPAAS-44-2 "Garlic": Andrea, Kot, Powder Miner, Cnidaros
(1) UF-LT-44 'Hayat': Madman
(1) UF-MCV-44 "Flails of Doom!" Mine clearing vehicle: NAV

Gotta ward off those vampires somehow. I believe Kot has explained enough that I'm convinced it won't be too difficult. Although, I would like it if the revision was just 'put the Sewing Machine on our ships' because wasn't the hypothetical danger from Cannalan ASM the thing which sparked this whole 'sewing machine revision'?
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Kot

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6711 on: July 14, 2018, 09:28:02 am »

Gotta ward off those vampires somehow. I believe Kot has explained enough that I'm convinced it won't be too difficult. Although, I would like it if the revision was just 'put the Sewing Machine on our ships' because wasn't the hypothetical danger from Cannalan ASM the thing which sparked this whole 'sewing machine revision'?
That should be dealt with with the SAM, ALTHOUGH, secondary layer of defense won't hurt, especially since what Parsley argued for actually applies in this case - ASM (at least early ones) don't dodge, they go in pretty much a straight line so they're relatively vulnerable, but it's not neccesarily such a priority. Worst case scenario we can just tie bunch of them to the sides of ships, since Salamanders float. :P
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Madman198237

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6712 on: July 14, 2018, 09:48:56 am »

Oh hey, I missed your earlier comment. Having a good light tank would be something that nobody has apparently tried to do in either game, which is a technological improvement even though it doesn't necessarily seem like it.
Light tank is not going to be as break-through as tons of other things, and I don't believe it will specifically help in the jungle that much if it keeps getting rocketed in the ass standing in the base at night. Sewing Machine guns probably can deal with everything except the Bull, and even then it's going to probably make the Bull crew pretty anxious because it will absolutely destroy their vision and possibly mobility kill it by destroying the tracks and wheels. Not saying the Garlic is a better light tank than whatever you want, but it serves a lot more purposes without being exceptionally harder.
Light tanks built to kill infantry, light armor, and even threaten their MBTs could easily be a bigger +1 than partially countering Canner NV, even if we do somehow manage to also hook up the radar in a Salamander. Remember that while it's useful, NV isn't all-powerful and Canners mostly use it for night maneuvers instead of engagements, and they certainly can't cripple our armored force at night. Otherwise they'd already be doing that to Salamanders, which have weaker armor than the proposed light tank (because the Hayat would have mangalloy armor and the same slat-and-ERA protection scheme). Light tanks counter the maneuvering aspect---being faster than Salamanders, probably air-portable, smaller (and probably faster) than the Bjorn, they'd be able to go anywhere necessary and provide a solid punch, even if they can't one-on-one Bulls by themselves.

Besides, at Cheap we could have enough of the things to just overwhelm Canner MBTs regardless.
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Kashyyk

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6713 on: July 14, 2018, 02:39:28 pm »

Quote from: Biasbox
(4) UF-SPAAS-44-2 "Garlic": Andrea, Kot, Powder Miner, Cnidaros
(1) UF-LT-44 'Hayat': Madman
(1) UF-MCV-44 "Flails of Doom!" Mine clearing vehicle: NAV
(2) UF-SMRL-44 "Speedbump": Conscript Five, Kashyyk
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Parsely

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6714 on: July 14, 2018, 05:36:02 pm »

Quote
(4) UF-SPAAS-44-2 "Garlic": Andrea, Kot, Powder Miner, Cnidaros
(1) UF-LT-44 'Hayat': Madman
(1) UF-MCV-44 "Flails of Doom!" Mine clearing vehicle: NAV
(3) UF-SMRL-44 "Speedbump": Conscript Five, Kashyyk, Parsely
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Taricus

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6715 on: July 14, 2018, 05:37:03 pm »

Quote
(5) UF-SPAAS-44-2 "Garlic": Andrea, Kot, Powder Miner, Cnidaros, Taricus
(1) UF-LT-44 'Hayat': Madman
(1) UF-MCV-44 "Flails of Doom!" Mine clearing vehicle: NAV
(3) UF-SMRL-44 "Speedbump": Conscript Five, Kashyyk, Parsely
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We sided with the holocaust for a fucking +1 roll

evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6716 on: July 14, 2018, 07:25:33 pm »


Quote
(5) UF-SPAAS-44-2 "Garlic": Andrea, Kot, Powder Miner, Cnidaros, Taricus
(1) UF-LT-44 'Hayat': Madman
(1) UF-MCV-44 "Flails of Doom!" Mine clearing vehicle: NAV
(4) UF-SMRL-44 "Speedbump": Conscript Five, Kashyyk, Parsely, eS

Olith McHuman

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6717 on: July 14, 2018, 07:33:18 pm »

Quote
(6) UF-SPAAS-44-2 "Garlic": Andrea, Kot, Powder Miner, Cnidaros, Taricus, McHuman
(1) UF-LT-44 'Hayat': Madman
(1) UF-MCV-44 "Flails of Doom!" Mine clearing vehicle: NAV
(4) UF-SMRL-44 "Speedbump": Conscript Five, Kashyyk, Parsely, eS
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6718 on: July 15, 2018, 02:25:22 am »

The Garlic seems a bit unnecessary, imho.  We have the Noose on our ships for good AA, and the Sewing Machine is already wheeled and can reliably take down helicopter gunships.  The nightvision aspect would be better done in design or through trying to reverse-engineer Cannala's equipment again.  If we're worried about having a large volume of fire against enemy ASM's, then we would really want to do radar-gunlaying like the Floodlight tried to do.

Our current RPG is from 1928.  The Speedbump lets our troops on the ground stand up against enemy armor, plus gives our paratroopers a way to do more damage beyond their current humble equipment loadouts.  I'm sure everyone remembers when Cannala put out the MURD-ER-43 and the profound effect it had; it was a major factor in the jungle and in the desert.  Currently their rocket launchers out range ours by 300% - or by 3,520%, if you count their radar-guided Hornet. 

Powder Miner

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Spring 1944 (Revision Phase)
« Reply #6719 on: July 15, 2018, 02:27:06 am »

The Garlic is more or less a way of putting the stolem Cannalan IR sensors to use against the Aswang by using the way they track IR to turn something in the direction of the heat, also without trying to make it man portable.
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