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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[evictedSaint]

The problem is if we're fighting in the Desert, NV won't help as much as a good rocket launcher.

It probably will. Remember, if they can fight at night while we can't, they're getting ~50% more fighting time.

Reading back through the battle reports for desert fighting, they used NV mostly for moving around at night rather than combat.  It was described as less helpful.

That being said, NV will certainly help for fighting in the Jungle next turn (and in Forenia).  Buuuut since the desert is so high priority, NV is less helpful than other options.

Personally I'm not a fan of bringing out a 20 year old tank and slapping 40 mm's on it - it seems like a less-than-ideal armor solution.

[NAV]

Sensei - Today at 8:00 PM
Late but, for how little mines are mentioned they're probably a big deal
Sensei - Today at 8:01 PM
So a mine detector or whatever would be useful

Vote for mine flail!

[Madman198237]

Personally I'm not a fan of bringing out a 20 year old tank and slapping 40 mm's on it - it seems like a less-than-ideal armor solution.

Why is that a problem? Remember that while the tank is old and we have a better engine, we *don't* have an equivalent chassis, and it's not like we've made any really important strides in making RHA or building suspension or anything anyways. Also, it'd be air-droppable, assuming the 40mm gun weighs what we'd expect it to (not in the "multiple tons per gun" range). Providing true, effective anti-armor capability that also shoots down low-flying aircraft and can wreak general havoc (spraying 40mm HE around kills a lot of things) for our paratroopers is probably worth several bigger compromises.

[Jilladilla]

We were apparently close in the Jungle:

It's a narrow thing, but a key Cannalan night raid determines the end of the fighting here.

While acquiring NV will almost certainly do a damn good job of swinging things into our favor, a smaller bonus may also be sufficient to upend the status quo. (Given how fighting in the Forenian Jungle is at 1/2; our Naval Advantage (if it's maintained) may be enough there.)

Of course, NV's relative lack of use in the desert and its importance, an alternative design would probably be better for safeties sake... Then again, we all agree that Cannala getting that Ore would be really bad......... (AAAAAAAAAAAHHHH) Then again, them getting the Ore and us losing the Oil would be truly disastrous... And Cannala has initiative.... (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH)

This said, a suggestion, the Hayat, but focusing a bit more on modernization over AA capability:

UF-LT-44 'Hayat' (Pattern B)
A T-25 tank with the side and rear armor thinned down to just 25mm of mangalloy and front armor reduced to 30mm of mangalloy. Part of its protection scheme is, of course, in a slat-armor configuration with ERA, just like the newest Salamander. Its engine is brought up to modern standards, which should in combination with the armor thinning should allow the Hayat to reach even higher speeds.
It's gun is also modernized, taking advantage of the advancements used with the Bjorn's cannon. The turret is also modernized, taking advantage of electrical power for traversal. The Hayat has an optional rail attachment, allowing it to mount a SARUKH rocket for a bit of extra anti-tank firepower.

[Madman198237]

That would be less effective at killing infantry and light armor than the Hayat I proposed. Also, the 50mm is probably not a very effective weapon as compared to automatic 40mm. With a full turret, well, hopefully it'd still be air-portable, but obviously nobody can be sure, least of all me.

[Powder Miner]

Uh... are we SURE the SPAAS Garlic is less difficult than the NVD one??? I know the NVD mentions the Aswang, but they both mention using sensors similar to those on the Piracy Warning, and the SPAAS is asking for a lot of shit besides that. If the way the SPAAS is making its sensor is more simple then make that as a standalone, but asking for a Salamander+Shillka platform with modified armor AND an improved gun guidance system AND a passive night vision sensor is asking so much out of a revision that even as an ardent supporter of the idea of the Garlic I can't bring myself to support it. This would make perfect sense as a design, but asking for all of these things out of a REVISION isn't going to work.

What we need is just the passive Night Vision technology, because every single turn where we make other designs intended for the jungle and think we'll finally swing a victory, other general changes on the war front combined with the Aswang slap our victory down from us -- a fantastic example of this would be the turn with the Salamander F. The Aswang is the factor that has kept the Cannalans in control of the jungle for so long, and with no way to deal with it I'm convinced that the jungle is an impenetrable wall to us and that we won't be able to get out of this horrible life-and-death stalemate.

But that said the SPAAS Garlic really is asking for too much and I won't vote for it.

[andrea]

the NV garlic is taking the piracy warning sensors, and somehow turning them into night vision, turning IR into optical images. That is hard, Cannala spent more than one design getting that. Definitely out of revision scope, it would be reverse engineering.

the SPAAS just takes them as is: when a sensor receives a strong enough infrared source, it sends an electric signal. WHich is far less complex than night vision even if we didn't have the sensors already. But we do. The SPAAS doesn't use a night vision sensor, it uses an IR sensors, and there is a difference.

Putting a new turret on an existing chassis shouldn't be a significant task. Armour is largely unmodified. I would agree  that it is better to otne down turret improvement, but that is it.
Compared to that, developing night vesion should be much harder.

[Olith McHuman]

If it's the jungle ambushes we're worried about, what about the sawed off shotgun in the legacy list? I question if it really has enough range given that it's a saw off, but shotguns have been used to good effect in jungle theaters in general, and would certainly seem to be a good fit here where our troops can't really see the enemy very well.

[Jilladilla]

If it's the jungle ambushes we're worried about, what about the sawed off shotgun in the legacy list? I question if it really has enough range given that it's a saw off, but shotguns have been used to good effect in jungle theaters in general, and would certainly seem to be a good fit here where our troops can't really see the enemy very well.

If it's in the Legacy List, it's in service. Believe me, there is a lot more old stuff than what is in that list. That's the trimmed list where we more or less cut out obsolete, redundant and near identical equipment, only keeping the better stuff.

For instance, Moskurg's Hippo Recoilless Rifle; it isn't on the list; but it was a thing, and we have it. We just don't use it because the Arstotzkan AS-RPG28 A served more or less the exact same role and was chosen.

Anyway, as for the shotguns; we're using them. Cannala has better shotguns. I guess better shotguns is a possible road to go down.
EDIT:Also, it's night ambushes we're worried about. Cannala has active infrared night vision. We don't have any night vision.

[Kashyyk]

We really need to stop arguing designs that are Very Hard. With a bad luck it means we will fail entirely. Better to do something more simple.

Like just reverse engineering their Aswang. Both the Garlics do that and more, so it'll definitely be simpler, will cut into their NV advantage and set thr stage for much easier attempts at both Garlics at a later date.

[Powder Miner]

What the idea for the Garlic SHOULD be is something that does LESS than the Aswang and relies on the Aswang to make that less shit be very specifically useful against the aswang.

[Powder Miner]

(1) UF-NVD-44 "Garlic": Kashyyk
(3) UF-SPAAS-44-2 "Garlic": Andrea, Kot, Powder Miner
(1) UF-LT-44 'Hayat': Madman
(1) UF-MCV-44 "Flails of Doom!" Mine clearing vehicle: NAV

Kot put out an explanation of the guidance on the Discord that convinced me of the viability of the Garlic. I think it’s still going to be hard but I don’t believe we’ll be crippled by a partial success.

[Kot]

For future reference:

Garlic is a revision of the Sewing Machine, and accomplishes few things. First off, it takes the now decomplexified radar and shoves it into a Salamander,

We're taking a thing we have and thing we have and shoving one into the another. If our radar fits in planes, I don't see why it wouldn't in a big-ass Salamander.

and then puts an Sewing Machine turret in the place of Salamander's one, linking the two, and possibly having a front and side armour plate to allow the gun to be used more effectively against ground targets.

Again, it's what we have, and honestly difficulty of just adding few sheets of armour to the front is trivial, and should help the system immensely with ground targets.

Aditionally, an IR sensor similar to the one found on the missiles is also added to the turret,

This is again what we have, and while I believe we haven't worked on it, by now we should understand missiles and guidance relatively well, so I don't think it'd be that hard.

and looks for strong sources of IR radiation, such as enemy night vision lamps. When spotted, the gun is aimed towards the source, in a manner very similar to how the guidance on the missiles work - if the target is off on X axis, it rotates the turret, if it's off on Y axis, it elevates the gun accordingy.

Self explanatory really.

After the gun is aimed, the gunner can decide wether to shoot or not. Essentially, if he doesn't see any sources of visible light, it means shoot, because he's probably looking at a source of invisible infrared radiation, which is most commonly found as Cannalan infrared spotlights.

The only other things I could see being targeted are giant-ass fires, the Sun and maybe Cannalan Bulls. In first case, we probably can't do much, in second case the system is not even going to be used at day, and in third case we're shooting in the right direction anyway.

A version of this system (sans the IR even, just the gun and the radar) should be put on the ships, to aid in their AA capabilities (SENSEI PLEASE NOTICE OUR SHIPS).

I JUST WANT AN AA GUN ON OUR SHIPS IS THIS TOO MUCH TO ASK AAAAAAAAAAA SENSEI AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[ConscriptFive]

Lots of interesting choices this time.

The mine roller is a nice utility item, except we're focused on trying to hold ground now, especially Vlanlados.  I don't see how clearing minefields really fits that narrative.

The light tank isn't a bad design, I think it's just too late.  We're in the AFV with autocannons (and probably AT missiles soon) era.  Our AFV (the Salamander) is so armored and versatile right now, I don't see what role this light tank fits in the battlefield.

And the Garlics... I want to like a Salamander Shilka with a RADAR and IR sensor, but that's going to be a VERY HARD roll for just a revision.  I'm getting superstitious seeing how often we've been crit failing revisions.  GM was generous with reading the Sewing Machine crit fail, and I wouldn't expect that again.  As flawed as our current Shilka is, it's probably good enough for now especially if the SAM lives up to its promises.  The NVD is something we should have made long ago instead of trying to steal the Aswang.  Unfortunately, knowing how those geeks are with electronics, they'd just roll out light amp NVGs the next turn.

Now the RPG is something we literally haven't touched this entire war.  It was great for it's time, but doesn't hit hard enough against modern armor.  It's obsolescence why the HKII is being forced into some really insane solutions (see eS's research credit story).  Now we've made Sarukh rockets, Artemis rockets, Piracy Warning missiles, Saltseeker missiles, and Noose missiles.  We should be able to make a dumbfire manportable AT rocket in our sleep.  Maybe we'll roll a 1 and just get a bigger warhead on the old launcher.  I'd be happy with that.

(1) UF-NVD-44 "Garlic": Kashyyk
(3) UF-SPAAS-44-2 "Garlic": Andrea, Kot, Powder Miner
(1) UF-LT-44 'Hayat': Madman
(1) UF-MCV-44 "Flails of Doom!" Mine clearing vehicle: NAV
(1) UF-SMRL-44 "Speedbump": Conscript Five

[Madman198237]

Our AFV is slow and the enemy's AFV is a tin can on wheels. A light tank (with armor capable of resisting 30mm autocannon fire and also all those pesky infantry weapons) will be able to deal with infantry AT weapons (well, you know, those ridiculous tandem-charge things will still be a problem until we fix ERA or something) as well as Cannalan Bulls if it flanks them. A 40mm gun is in the Medium category of armor, and the Bull has Medium armor on the sides and rear. Therefore a 40mm should be capable of punching through it. Again, this tank would be *faster* than the Salamander, meaning it can scout. It would reduce the demand for Salamanders to be used in weird situations they're not designed for.

Basically, yes, the Salamander and Raider fit this role. However, we can fill the role of light tank better, which is what this game is about---do things better than the enemy to win.


The primary reason that modern militaries use AFVs as light tanks is cost. They don't want to pay for yet another armored platform. That doesn't bother us, unless we have problems with action economy, which we don't really seem to.