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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Powder Miner]

It should be explained that Zanzetzuken changed his vote thanks to discord discussion -- if we build carriers, it becomes nonviable to use our revisions on transports like he wants (to increase our ore transport capacity to match the tundra island) because then we have to use our revision on something to deal with the most glaring issue, and only singular major issue, we've been presented with during the turn. If we want transports up right in time for our HF-32s to become cheap, then we should probably build cruisers this turn.

[Light forger]

UFS-NFB-38-W 'Hellion'
A naval focused gull winged fighter-bomber the hellion is equipped with a brand new V-12 supercharged engine able to produce around 1,500 horsepower. The hellion has an aggressive armament of four wing mounted AS-AC18 autocannons and, two nose mounted M3 Sorraia machine guns. The hellion also has a possible payload of up to 1,000kg in bombs or torpedoes. The bomb racks can also be mounted with drop tanks for extra range and if the fighter-bomber isn't loaded up with bombs it's a capable fighter. The fighter has all the features of a real fighter made by a proper country including a retractable landing gear, an oxygen mask, and a sealed cabin.

Reasoning: We aren't going to really be attacking the sea for a while so we make a top of the line fighter-bomber and then use the revise to get decent torpedoes to mount on them. A carrier can wait until next as we really don't have a great torpedo bomber to even use on the thing. Furthermore with any luck we can get the design credit and use it on the carrier to make it work.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

It should be explained that Zanzetzuken changed his vote thanks to discord discussion -- if we build carriers, it becomes nonviable to use our revisions on transports like he wants (to increase our ore transport capacity to match the tundra island) because then we have to use our revision on something to deal with the most glaring issue, and only singular major issue, we've been presented with during the turn. If we want transports up right in time for our HF-32s to become cheap, then we should probably build cruisers this turn.

Besides this, we have to consider the cost of the ARAC.  The Carrier is likely to be in a similar Ore cost despite the wood deck due to the need to build a ship to support that deck.  When we add in the likely Oil cost, it could very easily be pushed into the 'National Effort' range rather than merely 'Very Expensive'.  As such, it would be better to build a Cruiser and a bigger transport (possibly long range aerial), so we can get the Ore from the island next turn, making the 'National Effort' status far less likely.

[evictedSaint]

I am worried that postponing carriers another turn will result in us getting way-laid and distracted by other designs.  Building a cruiser is getting us close to "trying to match the Cannalan Navy", which is something we are explicitly trying not to do.

No matter what we design, we're going to get hurt in the seas this year and probably the next.  I believe projecting our air superiority into the seas is a better choice than trying to build up our own navy.  If they do end up being a National Effort, then they'll still be Very Expensive next turn anyways and we'll actually have had time to use it and fix any issues that come up.  With this route we stand a decent chance of negating their "Naval Superiority" in two turns.

[Taricus]

Evicted, Carriers will be the cornerstone of our navy. We WILL design one but we do need to ensure those carriers we do make are protected.. If building ships to compete with theirs is what we need then that is what we'll do.


We MUST retain flexibility even if goes against what we had planned earlier.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Oh hey, slight note for everyone.  If the Hydraulic Lift ends up 'complex', that would automatically push the Carrier into 'National Effort' range.  And if the ore cost would naturally put it there, push the design to the dreaded 'Theoretical.' Chew on that a bit.

I am worried that postponing carriers another turn will result in us getting way-laid and distracted by other designs.  Building a cruiser is getting us close to "trying to match the Cannalan Navy", which is something we are explicitly trying not to do.

Nah.  The sheer force behind the Carrier movement has been in existance since before the game.  In fact, getting them by the turn after this one was the original plan.

[Madman198237]

Evicted's very much right here. What needs to happen is people need to take a look at the alternatives for a carrier. Although the differences are really tiny.

Lemme draw this up in casual fashion:

Simple Carrier (Now named: Razor's Edge, CV-38L)
Steaming at 25 knots, powered by 8 boilers running 4 turbines, carrying 24 aircraft with a simplistic lift system, wooden flight deck for cheapness, NO ARMOR AT ALL to increase speed and decrease cost, command center located in the fore portion of the ship (Seeing where you're going is cool). No other armament. Hydraulic lift system if feasible. If too complex, replace with simple chain-and-winch lifting system.

'Wasp Nest': (8 ) GUNINANRUNIN, Khan Boyzitbig,evictedSaint, Helmacon, Andrea, Kashyyk, Happerry, Azzuro
'Cavalier': (4) Baffler, Powder Miner, Taricus, Zanzetkuken
'B3 Demolisher': (0)
'Hornet Nest': (0)
Razor's Edge (Carrier, CV-38L): (1) Madman198237

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Minor point I just thought of.  The Carrier is likely to be Hard, or Very Hard.  Due to it basically being a larger destroyer, the Cruiser is likely to be only a 'Medium'.  Given we rolled a 6 on our revision, we're likely to get a low roll by the hand of Murphy's Law, so we should probably hedge our bets, and due to the Cruiser being liklier to have a lower difficulty, it means that the results of a low roll would still be better.

[Light forger]

'Wasp Nest': (8) GUNINANRUNIN, Khan Boyzitbig,evictedSaint, Helmacon, Andrea, Kashyyk, Happerry, Azzuro
'Cavalier': (4) Baffler, Powder Miner, Taricus, Zanzetkuken
'B3 Demolisher': (0)
'Hornet Nest': (0)
Razor's Edge (Carrier, CV-38L): (1) Madman198237
UFS-NFB-38-W 'Hellion': (1) Lightforger

[Baffler]

Actually, if we roll successfully for the guns on the cruiser, will those same guns be installed on the Archer as well since the turrets are built for guns of that same size?

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Another point: the Research Credit.  Due to the Americans HELPING set our government up, we have an advantage there that we can wield.  If we do things right, then we'll get the research credit, so if we get the Cruiser this turn, we can use the Research Credit on the Carrier NEXT turn, making it far more likely we can get a good one!

[Taricus]

That leave the light cruiser a little under-gunned for it's size. But it does mean the Cannalan navy will have a hell of a time with all those shots.

[stabbymcstabstab]

'Wasp Nest': (8 ) GUNINANRUNIN, Khan Boyzitbig,evictedSaint, Helmacon, Andrea, Kashyyk, Happerry, Azzuro
'Cavalier': (5) Baffler, Powder Miner, Taricus, Zanzetkuken, Stabby
'B3 Demolisher': (0)
'Hornet Nest': (0)
Razor's Edge (Carrier, CV-38c): (1) Madman198237

If we want carriers we are going to need a lot more naval experince and enough naval control to keep them alive.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

That leave the light cruiser a little under-gunned for it's size. But it does mean the Cannalan navy will have a hell of a time with all those shots.

It's apparently around the range that makes it the best we can get.  At least the Rocket-Assisted Shells are noted to be able to have parity in range with their cannons, despite only coming from a 90mm, so a 130mm should allow for us to outrange them fairly decently.

Actually, if we roll successfully for the guns on the cruiser, will those same guns be installed on the Archer as well since the turrets are built for guns of that same size?

Probably.  Maybe the doctrine could be Cavaliers taking point since they can soak up shots better, while the lighter, faster Archers can effectively harass and provide support to weak areas.

[Baffler]

That leave the light cruiser a little under-gunned for it's size. But it does mean the Cannalan navy will have a hell of a time with all those shots.

Well to be fair their corsair destroyer uses a pair of 3" guns (which is actually even smaller than the 90mm bumblebee guns), while they use 6" (152.5mm) guns on their 'Kraken' ironclad (4 guns) and their battleship (18 guns!), though admittedly with some pretty advanced aim assistance. Probably the only reason they aren't also considered undergunned is that they mount absurd numbers of the things onto their ships and have anti-ship AP shells in common use. Plus the fact our only boats don't actually have any armor.