Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[NUKE9.13]

Sensei pretty much outright stated (in the discord) that you need to dedicate an entire revision to de-complexifying a thing. Replacing the weapons with our equivalents is probably allowed, but seriously upgrading anything is too much.

Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:13 PM
You could try to improve the DE or just replace it with turbines, but you're probably going to want to deal with the [Complex] tag first
...
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:15 PM
Just remember: Dealing with the [Complex] will eat a revision.

[Kashyyk]

I think the most likely thing to not happen in eS's revision will be the torpedo->missile mod. Otherwise it all seems very reasonable to do along with a Decomplex action

[RAM]

It is REALLY awkward to work based off of a partial conversation...

I like to think that we could have our engineers look over it and correct all the Can horribleness while keeping an eye out for speed improvements. We are working from designs here, so putting a different engine onto the drive shaft is probably not a big deal, upscaling the shaft and prop a touch ought not to be the all that horrifically arduous and ought to have massive proportional increases in load bearing compared to the actual change, what with benefiting from the area of a circle... Knocking the front and back turrets down from three guns to two, again, ought not be that horrific and ought to have noticeable weight savings. So long as we have speed enough to render the Vickies irrelevant to hunting down our fleets it would be helpful. I mean, ultimately, we are drawing up new plans, fabricating new fabricators, converting from horrible metrics to wonderful Metric.... It is a big job, but it is also an easy occasion to make small changes. Now, if our good engines are still worse than their bad engines, then we don'tt have a better engine so we can't just slot out one and slot in another. If our engine is significantly larger or requires significantly more ventilation or something, then, again, it would be beyond the scope of "do this AND remove complex". But if there are simple ways to get dramatic improvements then it should be relatively easy to achieve both objectives... And it should be pretty apparent that something is simple or not when you see the dimensions either do or do not fit within the space available. I mean, sure, maybe there is a pipe somewhere that is difficult to plot into a three-dimensional space or something, but, ehh, I like to think that our engineers have competent moments.

[NUKE9.13]

...I mean, yeah, I didn't quote the full conversation. I can if you want:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:10 PM
@Sensei so I asked this question and it wasn't answered yesterday---looks like it got lost in the mess. How do our naval powerplants compare to Cannala's?
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:11 PM
Not vastly different in general quality
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:11 PM
So is the difference in SHP negligible? (As in, for X space/tonnage given to engineering, who develops more shaft horsepower and thus more speed?)
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:11 PM
They've been doing ships longer, but you also put some thought into the steam engines on your trains in the last game.
SHP per ton is probably similar, yes
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:12 PM
OK.
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:12 PM
Except their enormous DE which was described as weak
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:12 PM
DE?
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:12 PM
Diesel Electric
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:12 PM
OK.
Is that what's in the Victoria or somewhere else?
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:12 PM
Diesel engines are the future as you're well aware, but theirs are immature
Only the victoria uses them
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:13 PM
So, to distill this to the base question: By spending a design/revision on the Vic, could we develop greater speed by replacing their engines?
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:13 PM
You could try to improve the DE or just replace it with turbines, but you're probably going to want to deal with the [Complex] tag first
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:14 PM
Well yeah.
If we flat-out replaced the diesel with our best turbines, where would we stand?
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:14 PM
It would no longer be "slow for its size" or whatever, it could outmaneuver Victorias enough to make it even ground against their naval skill bonus probably
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:15 PM
Excellent.
I know what I'm proposing next turn.
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:15 PM
Just remember: Dealing with the [Complex] will eat a revision.
Andrea - Last Sunday at 5:15 PM
I think madman is proposing a new design entirely
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:16 PM
A 16inch-gunned uparmored Victoria to be called the Victorious. After a revision this turn clears the [Complex] tag, of course.
Andrea - Last Sunday at 5:16 PM
oh
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:16 PM
GOing to use a design to make the Super Vic or whatevs?
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:16 PM
No, actually
Victorious
Andrea - Last Sunday at 5:16 PM
2 revisions then
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:16 PM
Because name-stealing's hilarious
One revision removes Victoria's tag, then a design will give us 16 inch guns at a... Normal difficulty. Or 390mm guns at Trivial.
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:17 PM
Go full Arstotzkan and translate Victorious to russian? :stuck_out_tongue:
победоносный

pobedonosnyy
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:17 PM
And the rest of the design just replaces the crappy Cannalan engines with our better ones.

What could possibly go wrong?
No, Sensei
I'm a Moskurger
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:17 PM
I forget hehe
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:17 PM
Not a filthy rebellious Arstotzkan
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:17 PM
We are all Forenians now anyway lol(edited)
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:17 PM
Tell that to Kot and company
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:18 PM
I did, they just disagreed
:wink:
NUKE9.13 - Last Sunday at 5:18 PM
That sounds dangerously close to separatism, Madman. You're a Forenian.
Andrea - Last Sunday at 5:18 PM
so, your plan is to decomplex victoria now to have an expensive ship, then make a new ship with a design next turn?
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:18 PM
Yes, Andrea.
Because designing and building a WWII-style battleship when their best...thing...is barely fit to be WWI standard would be hilarious
NUKE9.13 - Last Sunday at 5:19 PM
Actually, if you intend to use a design, why bother de-Complexifiying the soon-to-be obsolete Vicky?
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:19 PM
NUKE, I can prove I'm Forenian. Just look at the number of mad science projects scattered around whatever counts as my house
Andrea - Last Sunday at 5:19 PM
I would say, one or the other.
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:19 PM
Uh, NUKE, it's because the Victorious is almost certainly going to reach VE
NUKE9.13 - Last Sunday at 5:19 PM
Hmm.
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:20 PM
Because it's trying to develop so much more SHP, with bigger guns and thicker armor.
Andrea - Last Sunday at 5:20 PM
but both? we really need to show some love to our armor and our air will be challenged again soon
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:20 PM
Depends on this turn, of course.
But 16 inch guns and soon-to-be radar ranging is too good a combo to pass up.
Andrea - Last Sunday at 5:20 PM
Victorious will be VE. but it will not inherit the complex tag if it is new
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:20 PM
The issue, Andrea, is that it's going to be leeching off the Victoria design.
As in, "Take Victoria make some small changes"
Andrea - Last Sunday at 5:21 PM
then it is a revision?
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:21 PM
No.
NUKE9.13 - Last Sunday at 5:21 PM
But if it's an all new design it won't have the [Complex] tag.
Right, @Sensei ?
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:21 PM
Because we're going to need the experience of the Victoria hull, an upgrade to our guns, might even use the design to build a radar fire control system, and it is trying to match the Victoria's speed.
Andrea - Last Sunday at 5:21 PM
yes, and?
if we design it , our plans will be updated to metric anyway
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:22 PM
An all new design wouldn't be complex, but if it's supposed to benefit from Cannalan tech you should decomplex their design first.
Andrea - Last Sunday at 5:22 PM
hm
NUKE9.13 - Last Sunday at 5:22 PM
Oh. Okay then.
Madman198237 - Last Sunday at 5:22 PM
Which will involve lengthening the hull slightly, as fitting a double-16in (390mm/400mm) gun will require slightly larger turret mountings.
Actually, Sensei, does the Vic have deck armor? I can never remember.
Sensei - Last Sunday at 5:22 PM
That represents you fully analyzing and understanding it as well as just the silly joke I always make of "It's hard to build because it's in the wrong measurement system"

I hope you enjoyed reading through all of that.

I mean, ultimately, we are drawing up new plans, fabricating new fabricators, converting from horrible metrics to wonderful Metric.... It is a big job, but it is also an easy occasion to make small changes.

It is a big job. And word of god has it, it's such a big job that we can't make any substantial changes. Putting our guns on it instead of theirs is obviously fine- I don't think we have a choice in the matter, actually- but upgrading the engines is a no.

[evictedSaint]

We don't have deisel-electric engines, though?  Or did we steal the designs for that, too?  I'm confused as to what components are left out of the design and what are left in; I assumed replacing the foreign engines with our own engines was no different than replacing foreign guns with our own guns.

Either we got a new type of engine for absolutely free or we get to put in better engines for absolutely free.  Either is fine with me, honestly.

[NUKE9.13]

I think we got free engines, yeah.

Either that, or Sensei is gonna start the turn by writing "Forenia deploys their new Vodka-class Battleships... without any engines."

[NAV]

Actually stealing a ship would have been too much for a small group of commandos, but Forenia now has plans enough for the Victoria to be built with its whole hull, armor, engines, and director system, but the guns will have to be Forenian Overcompensators and the Cannalan radar design isn't included.

We have the engines.

[evictedSaint]

Alright, sweet.

This begs the question: why the *fuck* did Cannala put submarine engines on their pocket battleship?  I know they run the design philosophy of "design the current weapon with a weird quirk to make the next weapon easier" but it's still an odd choice.

Thing on the "To Do In Revision" list:
1) Steam Catapults
2) Better engines on Vodka/Storm Dragon
3) Radar targeting computer
4) Up-gunned Archer
5) Archer-Lander
6) Saltgrinder
7) ERA
Hanger Damage

[NUKE9.13]

Well, to be fair, diesel engines are the future- turbines are no longer used in serious warships, except for nuclear powered ones. It's more their design philosophy of "Design like it's the 21st century".

[Madman198237]

Why is almost everything he posted there a naval design?

Oh yeah, it's because we're winning everywhere us.



OK, self-back-patting finished. Back racing for MAD.
I refer you all, again to the following:

Better idea: Re-equip the Victoria with our guns in the revision, and spend the design on a battleship the Cannalans can't match.
Here's the revision:

UFN-BC-41 Vodka
The Victoria is, as per usual, somewhat....poorly made. In order to correct that, we take accurate measurements and use the proper bolts to remove the [Complex]ities of the design. Also, all Cannalan weapons and other pieces of equipment, such as the radar, are replaced with our equivalents as much as possible, to streamline training and such.

And then next turn we design the

UFN-BB-41 Victorious
This development of the Victoria turns that underengineered piece of Cannalan driftwood into a fighting ship. A true floating fortress if ever there was on, this ship is given a splinter-deck armor arrangement of deck armor capable of staving off an average 16-inch shell at maximum plunging penetration, a heavy citadel like the Victoria's, and a medium torpedo belt to keep the crappy Cannalan torpedoes off our ships. The hull is longer than the Victoria to improve speed, and the engines are our best engines ever produced, based around the Cataphract's propulsion system but improved in every conceivable way. The hull is both longer and wider (Due to the firepower upgrades) and the extra space is almost all used for additional engine horsepower. For firepower, the ship is re-equipped with three dual 390mm guns, controlled by a central director-firing system that acquires information both from a radar set and long-base rangefinders on the roof of every turret, in case of radar failure. A second radar system, optimized for detecting aircraft, is also provided. The ship carries 8 dual 100mm gun turrets as a dual-purpose antiaircraft/antiship weapon, has a massive number of antiaircraft guns of all our available calibers.

Mostly because it's basically everything we want (The revision, I mean) with everything the Cannalans never wanted us to have (The design)

[RAM]

...I mean, yeah, I didn't quote the full conversation. I can if you want:
I hope you enjoyed reading through all of that.

I mean, ultimately, we are drawing up new plans, fabricating new fabricators, converting from horrible metrics to wonderful Metric.... It is a big job, but it is also an easy occasion to make small changes.

It is a big job. And word of god has it, it's such a big job that we can't make any substantial changes. Putting our guns on it instead of theirs is obviously fine- I don't think we have a choice in the matter, actually- but upgrading the engines is a no.

Thankyou! That added SO MUCH context! I am inclined to agree that that seems to be what Sensei was saying. I still wanna make a try at engine swapping though. I mean, if it is obviously not going to work then no, but if it has the same or less ventilation needs, the same or less space needs, then it should be possible to put in one instead of the other.

On the other hand, they DO have a diesel-electric engine, and they DO know that we have light battleship plans, and they also know that we also have a shiny-new cruiser, and that our destroyers are kind of sad, and that we rely upon large carriers...

Revision: Anti-torpedo rockets
The archers have never been great torpedo boats, so we put them in a dedicated defensive role by implementing modified SARUKH launchers in place of all but two of their dolphin launchers. These modified rockets are slightly larger, have heavier casing, proportionally larger warheads and much reduced range, and replace their detonator with an adjustable timed one. The purpose of these changes is to produce a device that will go a short distance under the water and then explode, hopefully detonating any nearby torpedoes. If they should happen to be effective against near-surface submarines then so much the better...
Now I really don't think that timed fuses should be a problem, but it might be design-worthy. water-penetrating cases could, again, be overambitious, but I could see it not being, especially without an impact detonator.

Thing on the "To Do In Revision" list:
1) Steam smokeless solid-fuel rocket Catapults

[evictedSaint]

If nothing else, just ask for the engine swap. If it's out of the scope of the revision then it just won't be done.  There's reasonable arguements for both why we would and would not get it, and if we wouldn't get it anyways then it's not like it increases the difficulty.

[NAV]

We already know that engine swap is outside the scope of the revision, so asking for it anyway is just asking for trouble. We can't just keep adding things to the revision until it turns into a design and expect to accomplish the main goal. Asking for extra stuff Will increase the difficulty level.

Engine swap is a major engineering task, we don't just have engines poweful enough lying around. Deck armour is a higher priority anyway.

Also, steam catapults are anti-PAROI. We should fix the rocket catapults instead. Improved ventilation, oxygen/filter masks for operators, less smokey rockets, etc.

[RAM]

Yes, we shall produce rocket exhaust that smells of serene daisies after a light rain and invigorates the mind and body!

[Madman198237]

We DO in fact use better engine tech. They tried diesel to save space (And fit some engineering stuff inside the citadel that otherwise might not have fit) but they failed and got a sub-standard powerplant, meaning that if we replaced their diesel with our steam turbines (And this is by word of Sensei (on Discord)), we'd have a faster ship. That said, it's NOT within the scope of a de-[Complex]-ing revision. It needs its own revision. Or a design. See above post(s).