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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[10ebbor10]

Actually, the Velociraptor should be decent for aircraft. The ability to combine various types of ammunition is very usefull.

[Madman198237]

The thing is, if we revise it and DO get it WITH A COMPLEX TAG, we'll have as many Victorias as the Cannalans do.

I don't understand why the phrase "Destroy every Cannalan ship with one shot because their armor is so horribly brittle" doesn't make more sense that spending the credit on something we MIGHT be able to get in other ways.

Heck, we'd probably want to save that credit for two turns if the revision works. As soon as we're attacking Cannala itself, we shut down their navy.

[Taricus]

Not particularly? The interchangable ammo thing helps our ground based vehicles more given that those can switch between ammo types a lot more easily.

@Madman, revision stealing will have it also come with a foreign measurements tag as well. No way around that.

[Madman198237]

Yes, then, if we get lucky, we have as many Victorias as they do. If we don't, then we steal the plans and don't have any issues with "foreign measurements", since A. we have the plans and B. we're not so stupid we can't properly convert from Imperial to metric and C. we've already worked with the things before.

[Taricus]

Whereas if we steal it with the espionage credit, and somehow get it without a foreign measurements tag we've got it straight off the bat with it being expensive. Because that brittle armour is only going to last a turn and there's no guarantee the revision to steal it will succeed.

[Azzuro]

Yeah, I don't see why the Velociraptor wouldn't improve our aircraft too.

Anyway, one important argument against ERA: ERA pretty much removes combined infantry-armour operations as an option. The Cannalan Bull has about the same problem with its turboshaft engine exhaust preventing infantry from fighting alongside/behind it on narrow jungle roads, ERA would present a much greater penalty with infantry being unable to operate with ERA-equipped tanks. Plus, I think the majority of tank-against-tank combat in the Jungle should be taking place at relatively closer ranges anyway, thus blunting its effect as compared to say, the Plains.

Meanwhile, the Turbohaast also helps squash the Cannalan armour advantage. It doesn't even fill the same expense niche as the Haast, as the Haast will become cheap next turn, so we'll have more than double the armour-killing power next turn. And it gets us turbofans for a Future Jet!

Fakeedit: And for the whole revision vs espionage credit stealing the Victoria thing, I will just say it's silly to use the revision when we could use the credit instead. Keep it secret, and spend next turn's revision to un-complex it if needed.

[evictedSaint]

Just gonna repost this idea here...just think about it.

Missile Cruisers. 
Cruise Missiles.


Basic Idea: a Guided Missile package that can be deployed in defensive emplacements, or added onto existing vehicles like our Breaker or Salamander (much like their Raider's RPG). Gives us experience building guided missiles.

UF-ATGM-41 Saltseeker' Pattern A

Forenia's first step towards guided missiles and one-hundred seventy-fourth step towards better rockets, the United Forenian Anti-Tank Guided Missile 'Saltseeker' is designed as a heavy anti-tank weapon that can be deployed via stationary infantry emplacements or appended to vehicle turrets.

Relying on a modified SARUKH rocket, the Saltseeker is launched via a disposable tube à la our Recoilless Rifles.  Eight fins lay flat until free of the tube, at which point they spring free to provide stability and control for the missile.  Four kilometers of braided steel-reinforced wire is spooled in the rear of the rocket which is dispensed as the rocket flies along.  This wire is connected to the control station which the operator uses a joy-stick to control the flight of the missile.  Rather than controlling roll and pitch like in a fighter plane, this joy-stick controls yaw and pitch instead.  This relatively simple programming is handled by the launcher rather than putting the control station in the missile.  The missile uses a small launch-motor to kick it free of the tube to prevent exhaust from frying the operator, and a small probe that extends outward from the tip to allow detention prior to striking a surface.  A small scope sight is attached to the launcher for the user to look through.  A crosshairs is to be placed on the target and the operater must keep the fired missile in the center of the crosshairs.  This rudimentary targeting system is to allow more precise control at maximum range.

The Saltseeker is designed as a 'package' that can be installed on vehicles for a small additional cost.

We can totally do this - it's based off of the Malkara Missile which was developed between 1951 and 1954.  90% kill rate.  We have all the prerequisite tech.  It gives our tanks, salamanders, and defensive emplacements the extra punch to knock out enemy armor from long range.  It opens the door to AA missiles, Cruise Missiles, and if we do subs we'll want wire-guided torpedos or TASM missiles to hit enemy ships.

It is an investment with a real, present bonus that we have all the tech to pull off.

Wire-guided and radio-controlled missiles existed in WW2.  Hell, wire-guided torpedos existed before then, too.  We can do it!!!

[10ebbor10]

Having their armor be brittle for a single turn doesn't help us at all.

We need lasting advantages

[Madman198237]

No, there is no guarantee.

So we try it anyway.

There's no guarantee anything will work, the game is ruled by dice. But an espionage credit is almost infinitely more powerful than a revision. If we COULD steal the Victoria in a revision, then the credit is open for ANYTHING.

Steal the Santos?

Sabotage something? Empower the supposed Juraki rebellion mentioned earlier?

Attempt to destroy their relationships with the Allies?

[Taricus]

Basically what Ebbor said. More to the point I think it's been stated the espionage credit only rolls if we try knocking off Cortez. Anything else, it automatically succeeds. And depending how we write out the proposal for the theft of the victoria blueprints it could well empower the juraki rebels.

@Azzuro: Air support is basically non-viable for the jungle due to the thick canopy. We need something that's ground based for it to be effective in the jungle.

[Azzuro]

As I posted in the Discord, spending the Espionage Credit for a one-turn bonus (weakened naval armour) isn't a good use of it. Just like the Cannalan Expense Credit on the Victoria (the same turn we rolled out Overcompensators), if it doesn't gain us a critical piece of territory, the credit is essentially wasted. I don't think the middle piece of the Jungle is exactly critical, and I wouldn't like to assume we could make a successful landing on the Tundra without proper landers.

@Taricus: The Haast has been stated to have an effect in the Jungle numerous times. If you want something ground-based, we could look into getting a new tank instead (preferably one without turboshaft).

[10ebbor10]

Yup, remember the Canallan's using their credit to sabotage our guns. No lasting impact.

[Light forger]

UFS-41-W 'Virgil'
The Virgil is a next current generation radar built around a new(for forenia) cavity magnetron. This new development is a massive improvement over our current radar letting us build the whole array in a single towable unit(sans power supply). The naval unit(mountable on all ships) is nearly as small and is normally mounted on the conning tower with only minor difficultly finding room. The magnetron is not only much smaller but, also offers vastly improved range and accuracy. The most important version(to our dear general at least) is the reckless effect mounted version. A slightly scaled down version of normal Virgil it creeps in at just under 4 tons and uses an alternator mounted to one of the reckless's engine to supply it's power. Although this means it can't be used until the plane is at altitude and, will reduce it's flight ceiling and speed. The ground and naval version includes a so called auto-tracker which after detecting a enemy craft/plane will automatically keep the radar pointed at that target if the crew so chooses.

Other then the auto-tracking everything here has already been done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_Mk._IV_radar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GL_Mk._I_radar

[evictedSaint]

Design:  RDN-41-3 "DEADLIEST RAY"
The most notable advancement by the Radar Defense Network Mk. 3 "Deadliest Ray" is the invention of the cavity magnetron.  Leaps and bounds smaller than the primitive radar installations currently used on land and sea by the Forenian Army, it is the culmination of several years of research and multiple attempts to improve the radar system itself.

This system is small enough to move from dedicated Cargo-Radar ships to being mounted in the command towers of military naval ships without sacrificing the turret stations.  It is small enough to be mounted on mobile trucks and SPAAG's for in-field radar detection and even mounted aboard a Reckless Effect (or Ice Giant, if space is not permitting) in order to provide mobile air-based radar command stations for arial operations.  Rather than an entire battery of Overcompensator Shore Defense systems relying on a single radar installation, each may be mounted with its own radar system.

A by-product of this new invention is the invention of an ESM - an Electronic Support Measure.  Simply a radar system without an emitter, this allows a detector to passively detect in-coming radiation and determine the bearing of the signal relative to the craft.  Small enough to be mounted aboard either the Thunderbird or Haast, this allows scout-craft to detect enemy radar, increasing the range of detection of our ships on the sea as we should be able to home in on the enemies ship-borne radar.

This passive detection can also be concievably used for proximity fuses in flak shells or for homing devices in missiles, but for the moment this design focuses on miniaturizing the size of our radar and mounting it on our existing systems, with a minor goal of isolating the detector portion of the radar for ESM warfare.

Opens the way for proximity fuses, helps us on both land and sea, gives us a route for guided weapons, and it's all done by simply researching a time-period appropriate tech in a field we've fiddled with three times before now.  Hell, it may even help the Overcompensator by giving each gun its own radar.

[Taricus]

A new tank is something I can completely support. We need something like the panther or tiger II in the face of their bulls.

UF-MT-41 'Demolisher'
Designed to take on the Cannalan 'Bull' tank and come out on top consistently, the Demolisher tank uses an enhanced 75mm cannon (Named the 'Butcher') using a falling block breach and semi-automatic action (meaning, it ejects the spent case automatically), as well as using a lengthened barrel and more propellant behind each shot with APCBC-HE-T being it's primary round (Copied from the rounds of our german allies). The gun is also designed to have a muzzle break and has a gyroscope to make mobile firing easy. 3 Sorraias are also included in the design; 1 coaxial, 1 hull & 1 cupola. Additionally, the tank's targeting sights are provided by eagle sight Mk. IIs arranged as a stereoscopic rangefinder, allowing it to massively outshoot the bull thanks it actually having sights.

In regards to armour the Demolisher mounts roughly 100mm on the front, 60mm on the sides, 40mm on the rear & 20mm on the top (With the turret being up-armoured slightly more than the hull). All the armour on the tank's hull is sloped, with both the front and sides sloped conventionally and the rear armour sloped out in reverse (AKA Akin to a Konigstiger or panther) with a stretched-out hexagonal turret. All the armour is RHA. Furthermore, reinforced slat amour is applied to the front and sides of the hull in order to protect against HEAT rounds.

A thick firewall separates the fighting compartment from the efficient V12 engine, lessening the risk of a fire taking out the crew or ammo. Wide treads with cowling ensures that even in the jungle mud the tank will be able to move smoothly. The tank also has a crew of five men (Commander, Gunner, Driver, Loader & Radio operator) co-ordinated by use of a tank intercom and radio headsets.