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Glorious Arstotzka

17 (16%)

Glorious Moskurg

13 (12.3%)

Ingloriously Didn't Play

76 (71.7%)

Total Members Voted: 106

[Devastator]

Where are you getting the new complex techniques from?

We've been using Maganese alloys for decades. It's not new, it's not complicated. We're improving the jet engine, not our knowledge of metallurgy.

The hot parts are replaced with a ferretic heat resistant steel aluminum alloy, which dramatically improves engine life expectancy. The previous alloy suffered from severe oxidation problems.

The Turbine blades with Chromadur. This steel-Chrome-Maganese alloy provides sufficient resistance at affordable price, once again allowing greater performance. It's also easier to produce, if more resource intensive.

Basically, this brings our engine metallurgy up to late Nazi-era levels. While this by no means or indication good, it is much better than what we're currently capable of.

[10ebbor10]

Yes, I'll explain the sentences to you.

Basically, this brings our engine metallurgy up to late Nazi-era levels. While this by no means or indication good, it is much better than what we're currently capable of.

This means we're improving the metallurgy of our engines. Meaning we're improving the alloys used in our engines. Meaning we're improving the engines, not our general knowledge of metallurgy. Meaning, we're using stuff we already know how to make (because we have manganese and aluminum alloys), and we're using them in our engines.

The other quote is simply technobabble about how precisely it's done.

Honestly, you seem to be grasping to find something to dislike. Would you feel better if I removed all the long words?

aTJ04 "Simple Edition"

In an attempt to improve the ease of production of the engine, while also improving it's capabilities, Artotzkan metallurgists brought on board the jet engine design projects. They immediately suggests a series of significant improvements. Introduction of aluminum and Manganese alloys improves engine performance. It's expected that the accumulated experience from the design and the ease of use of manganese alloys will resolve the complex tag.

[andrea]

Jet engine manufacturing
Piston engines can be largely manufactured using same techniques as car or tank engines. Jet engines, not so much. We need to adapt.
New standards and quality controls are implemented, parts are standardized to an high degree, their manufacturing process streamlined and new machinery implemented. Moskurg metallurgists are tasked with creating a full and reliable list of instructiosn for our alloy. If needed, adjustements are made to the engine to make the manufacturing less complex.
Overall, we are retooling our industry to be more suited to jet engine production, increasing the produced number of our new jet engines and hopefully increase overall quality

Well, ninjaed by lightforger, although my proposal adds a "we hope new manufacturing helps quality as well"

[Light forger]

Ebbor your coming at this from the wrong angle. Our engine has a lifespan of maybe 30 hours on average before they wear out. Assuming a 30 minutes sortie time(they are noted for their high fuel consumption) that's 60 sorties. Thanks to our radars and combined with active battlegrounds we are likely to have that plane shot down before it's engine can wear out. Sensei specifically noted on discord that it's our manufacturing that causing the complex tag not engine lifespan. While I'm not completely against trying to boost our engine; I would prefer to focus 101% of the revision on getting that tag off rather then running the risk of running low and leaving it off.

[Devastator]

Honestly, you're just grasping at straws to seek a point to hate. Would you feel better if I removed all the long words?

Mostly I just wanted it clear that this would count for engine experience not engine experience + whatever else alloyed metals are useful for experience.  Two increases, one for performance and one for removing a complex tag, and experience only qualifying for engines seems pretty reasonable.  Hiding a third one (composite materials research) didn't seem kosher.

Anyway, I probably shouldn't have said anything, so I'm off.

[10ebbor10]

Ebbor your coming at this from the wrong angle. Our engine has a lifespan of maybe 30 hours on average before they wear out. Assuming a 30 minutes sortie time(they are noted for their high fuel consumption) that's 60 sorties. Thanks to our radars and combined with active battlegrounds we are likely to have that plane shot down before it's engine can wear out. Sensei specifically noted on discord that it's our manufacturing that causing the complex tag not engine lifespan. While I'm not completely against trying to boost our engine; I would prefer to focus 101% of the revision on getting that tag off rather then running the risk of running low and leaving it off.

30 hours would be better than late War Nazi Germany.

I suggest the more realistic assumption of 5-10 hours.

And as said before, Manganese alloys are easier to use. It's why Nazi Germany used them, they're cheaper and easier to produce. They're terrible in comparison to high quality Nickel-Cobalt-molybdenum alloys, but neither us nor the Cannalan's will have those in a long time.

Mostly I just wanted it clear that this would count for engine experience not engine experience + whatever else alloyed metals are useful for experience.  Two increases, one for performance and one for removing a complex tag, and experience only qualifying for engines seems pretty reasonable.  Hiding a third one (composite materials research) didn't seem kosher.

Alloys are not composite metals. I have no idea where you're getting that from.

[Powder Miner]

Would you feel better if I removed all the long words?

This sort of blatant, personal, insult of intelligence is honestly unacceptable.

[10ebbor10]

Not really.

Devastator appeared to think that the proposal was complex because of the detailed explanation. Simplifying the explanation is henceforth a solution to this wrongful impression of complexity.

I can't be blamed for saying that someone got confused by the detailed explanation, when they did in fact get confused by the detailed explanation.

A statement of fact is a statement of fact.

Perhaps, using "complex terminology" or "excessive technobabble" instead of "long words" would have been better. In any case, no insult was intended, which I think is obvious the description beneath it is a honest and correct simplified version, not a denigrating oversimplified one.

EDIT : In any case, having a discussion about the wording a statement will quickly escalate in something that is against the game's behaviour rules. If you think it's out of line, get Sensei involved, but let's not derail the thread any more than it already has been.

[RAM]

If we can get rid of the complexity as a component of an otherwise normal revision, then it seems foolish to waste a revision on, effectively, nothing, just to guarantee the loss of complexity. We do not have enough revisions so we should do a good, if unambitious one. Question is, what precisely needs to be revised to get the complexity loss. I like to think that switching the HAFB to a jet is a jet-focused revision, but that may not work as the jet research is just affixing it in a new arrangement. Reviewing the materials could also fix it, it seems sensible as it is changing the assembly process. Unless the outcome is completely unusuable mess of overexpensive parts and exploding planes then it should be fine. Although I worry about it as people are suggesting twice the number of engines, and given how much materials we have, that could be a big problem if we start seeing 2 aluminium from the engines and another from the bodywork... It is just a big problem of working on individual parts like this...

Ugh, I hate to detract from the designs that I want, but...
I.O.U.F.A.F.-F.J.2-nineteenfourtyalmostone "Thunderedge Birdlord"
This is a review of the UFAF-F-40 "Thunderbird" according to combat experience to work out all the kinks. Obviously, most of the focus is on the engine. The material needs have been reduces by coating the interior of the engin casing with an electric heater. This keeps the engines warm while in the hangar and reduces the need for cold tolerance and the troubles of temperature changes.
A central cylinder of heat-sinks and heat-sink spikes front-and-back along with narrow, very swept-back heat sink fins towards the back of then engine help to mitigate heat buildup and allow the engine to run a little more intensely. Additionally, we have added flaps along the wings that deform the aerodynamic presence of the wing to impersonate a larger wing with more lift which is automatically retracted at high speed by a pair of redundant speedometers in each wing. We finally gave it an extra pair of nose-mounted Sorraias so that the three guns look like a smile and the two cannons look like eyes.

0 (RAM)Phased Death Ray radar:
0 (RAM)"P.J." HAFB bomber with jet engines:
0 (RAM)Bouncing Beans booster rockets:
0 (RAM)Archer pattern "R.B." rocket boat:
0 (10ebbor10)aTJ04 Jet engine:
0 (Light forger+andrea)Lighting Jet Engine Manufacturing:
0 (RAM)Thunderedge Revised jet fighter:
0 ():
0 ():

[somemildmanneredidiot]

The goal is to bring the cost of Thunderbirds down to Cheap. To achieve this we need to get rid of the Complex tag. We can get rid of the Complex tag while having the focus be advancing something else, but it isn't guranteed to do so. Therefore, having the focus of the revision being getting rid of the Complex tag with a solid chance of advancing something else is a more secure advancement path.

[andrea]

0 (RAM)Phased Death Ray radar:
0 (RAM)"P.J." HAFB bomber with jet engines:
0 (RAM)Bouncing Beans booster rockets:
0 (RAM)Archer pattern "R.B." rocket boat:
0 (10ebbor10)aTJ04 Jet engine:
1 (Light forger+andrea)Lighting Jet Engine Manufacturing: Andrea
0 (RAM)Thunderedge Revised jet fighter:
0 ():
0 ():

Lets start voting.

[somemildmanneredidiot]

0 (RAM)Phased Death Ray radar:
0 (RAM)"P.J." HAFB bomber with jet engines:
0 (RAM)Bouncing Beans booster rockets:
0 (RAM)Archer pattern "R.B." rocket boat:
0 (10ebbor10)aTJ04 Jet engine:
2 (Light forger+andrea)Lighting Jet Engine Manufacturing: Andrea, SMMI
0 (RAM)Thunderedge Revised jet fighter:
0 ():
0 ():

Lets start voting.

[NUKE9.13]

You sure you've submitted enough designs there, RAM?
I mean, suggesting a whole bunch of designs is fine. But adding them to the list before someone has voted for them is maybe not such a great idea?
Also, just a friendly word of advice, but I suspect people might be more inclined to vote for your ideas if you toned down the 'lolrandumb' a little bit.

0 (RAM)Phased Death Ray radar:
0 (RAM)"P.J." HAFB bomber with jet engines:
0 (RAM)Bouncing Beans booster rockets:
0 (RAM)Archer pattern "R.B." rocket boat:
0 (10ebbor10)aTJ04 Jet engine:
3 (Light forger+andrea)Lighting Jet Engine Manufacturing: Andrea, SMMI, NUKE9.13
0 (RAM)Thunderedge Revised jet fighter:
0 ():
0 ():

EDIT: Also, for those saying spending a revision just to de-[Complex] is a waste: whilst it may be possible to combine it with something else, by focusing on it we guarantee a lower difficulty. Occasions in the past where an unrelated revision resulted in the [Complex] tag being dropped probably involved good rolls, I'm guessing.

[andrea]

If you want your revisions to be considered, I think it is fair to add them to the votebox even if they have no votes. If they are not in the votebox, they will be forgotten easily and therefore will get no votes, even if perhaps they deserve to be considered.

[10ebbor10]

I think it's nice to add them if it's a realistic proposal.

But cluttering up the votebox with joke proposals that no one is voting for is another matter.