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Which team did you play in the last game?

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Author Topic: Intercontinental Arms Race: Finale  (Read 592305 times)

NUKE9.13

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2985 on: May 31, 2017, 11:33:35 am »

[...] equipped with rocket-powered (or failing that, steam or hydraulic or pneumatic or just none at all) catapults to help our aircraft get up to speed and both terminating in ski jump ramps to ensure our planes start climbing immediately.
You don't need a ski jump to get planes in the air if you use catapults, so why have a ski jump at all if we're so keen on catapults? Ski jumps are used on carriers when you want a short runway (a catapult already provides this) without having to deal with the cost of a catapult. So I don't understand why the Z has both. Ski jumps force weight limitations on the aircraft and occupy space at the front of the deck that you could otherwise use if it was a flattop.

If you already achieve takeoff speeds using a catapult, why are you taking the extra cost to angle the flight deck upwards?
Because either one by itself may not be enough to get a heavily-laden plane airborne. The Thunderbird requires a 'Long Runway'. Personally I doubt we will be able to launch it from any carrier we build, but future jets might require slightly less of a run up- but still more than a catapult can provide alone.
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Mulisa

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2986 on: May 31, 2017, 11:33:46 am »

Quote
Future Design: UFAF-SB-40 'Ice Giant'

The United Forenian Air Force Strategic Bomber 'Ice Giant' is Forenia's first heavy strategic bomber.  Utilizing four jet engines for thrust, the Ice Giant is tuned to fly as high and as fast as possible, relying primarily on staying out of range of interceptors for survivability.  Features a pressurized internal cabin.  A massive wingspan provides as much lift as possible, with an equally large rudder and elevator for stability.  It features a 2x20 mm AC-20 on the tail, a 2x20 mm AC-20 remote-controlled on the belly, and another 2x20 mm AC-20 mm on the roof for protection.  Makes use of an advanced gyroscopic bombsight for semi-accurate bombing runs. 

Hey guys, check out this bomber I totally just designed.  I totally came up with the name all on my own.  What do you think of it, piratejoe?
Please, just change the name of that thing.


Actually "Blood Eagle" would be a fitting name for a plane. And a funny one too. When released the Cannalans would think we spent all that time making the bomber.  :D
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2987 on: May 31, 2017, 11:36:07 am »

@mulisa: it was piratejoe's name, I was teasing him.  Blood Eagle is a better name, yeah.

Azzuro

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2988 on: May 31, 2017, 11:44:22 am »

The Pattern C will be bigger, either in length or width (jutting out), than the Z carrier. You're making a disingenuous comparison between two different classes of carrier. A better comparison would be the Centaur pre and post-refit, which is wider hulled? That's the decision facing us, whether or not this thing will have angled deck, which will make it bigger and thus more difficult. I don't know how you can claim with a straight face that two runways will occupy the same surface area as one.

Also, we aren't cutting a hole in the bow to launch planes out of. We're constructing another deck on top of the existing, which the Wasp Nest does as well. Angled deck is "a new shape", I don't know how you can claim it's the same shape.

Hey, any answer to this?

I want to talk about ski jump + catapult:

[...] equipped with rocket-powered (or failing that, steam or hydraulic or pneumatic or just none at all) catapults to help our aircraft get up to speed and both terminating in ski jump ramps to ensure our planes start climbing immediately.
You don't need a ski jump to get planes in the air if you use catapults, so why have a ski jump at all if we're so keen on catapults? Ski jumps are used on carriers when you want a short runway (a catapult already provides this) without having to deal with the cost of a catapult. So I don't understand why the Z has both. Ski jumps force weight limitations on the aircraft and occupy space at the front of the deck that you could otherwise use if it was a flattop.

If you already achieve takeoff speeds using a catapult, why are you taking the extra cost to angle the flight deck upwards?

Ski jumps DO NOT force weight limitations on the aircraft. They increase the limitations that carrier-launched aircraft already operate under. This is like saying that rifled barrels decrease the accuracy of a gun because they don't make the bullets perfectly accurate.

Also, literally no angled deck carriers park aircraft at the front of the deck. The ski-jump occupies the area that would already be reserved for the aircraft's take-off roll, and decreases the length of that roll. And really, ski-jumps are so simple that they will not increase the cost. If we had to choose between ski-jumps and catapults for cost reasons, the answer is obvious.
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Sheb

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2989 on: May 31, 2017, 11:47:38 am »

I think we need to rationalize our designs a bit. We seems to be divided between a carrier, a naval gun and maybe a heavy bomber. Can't we decide for direction and then for type within?
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Parsely

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2990 on: May 31, 2017, 11:48:38 am »

You still don't get what I'm talking about, do you? The Pattern C will be bigger, either in length or width (jutting out), than the Z carrier. You're making a disingenuous comparison between two different classes of carrier. A better comparison would be the Centaur pre and post-refit, which is wider hulled? That's the decision facing us, whether or not this thing will have angled deck, which will make it bigger and thus more difficult. I don't know how you can claim with a straight face that two runways will occupy the same surface area as one.

Also, we aren't cutting a hole in the bow to launch planes out of. We're constructing another deck on top of the existing, which the Wasp Nest does as well. Angled deck is "a new shape", I don't know how you can claim it's the same shape.
I'll grant that it would probably be wider to make space for the takeoff catapult, but I kind of doubt it, since that space would already be there since the Tiger Star has an offset island. Even if the Pattern C was wider than the Z carrier, it would still be more cost effective, because unlike the Z carrier it doesn't have an entire second deck dedicated to a runway that can only launch planes when you don't need that much space to launch planes using a catapult. It's extremely wasteful.

Have you not seen the photographs that I showed? The decks are rectangular, nothing is "jutting out" as you say, and even if it did does that really imply increased cost? The whole point of an angled deck is to maximize the use of the space you have to land planes on a deck at has the least length you need. It doesn't have to be an irregular shape, but if it was, it wouldn't make the carrier cost more.
http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files/Angleddeck-4.jpg
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/images/europe/r81-2.jpg
http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files/Angleddeck-3.jpg
This one even looks like it was rectangular but a chunk was cut out of it because it wasn't needed. So it's not really more total space than a centerline carrier, more like the space has been rearranged.

Because either one by itself may not be enough to get a heavily-laden plane airborne. The Thunderbird requires a 'Long Runway'. Personally I doubt we will be able to launch it from any carrier we build, but future jets might require slightly less of a run up- but still more than a catapult can provide alone.
The primary limiting factor on a carrier's length isn't takeoff, it's landing. The runway, the longest part of the deck, is mainly for landing planes because you need more space to stop a plane than you need to send one off, which is why the Pattern C's is angled, to save on length and increase the amount of use we get out of the rest of the deck, as well as making landings safer.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 11:54:01 am by GUNINANRUNIN »
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2991 on: May 31, 2017, 11:53:31 am »

What - really?  That doesn't sound right.  We have arresting cables for short stops, we need the longer runway to get our planes up to speed.  I've never heard of landing being the limiting factor for runway lengths.

Parsely

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2992 on: May 31, 2017, 11:57:20 am »

What - really?  That doesn't sound right.  We have arresting cables for short stops, we need the longer runway to get our planes up to speed.  I've never heard of landing being the limiting factor for runway lengths.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
See where the catapult is, near the bow, in front of the island? That's all the space they need to launch jets. The runway is the solid white marks, and that's for landing.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nimitz/images/nimitz3.jpg
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/nimitz.gif
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 12:00:04 pm by GUNINANRUNIN »
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Kot

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2993 on: May 31, 2017, 11:59:22 am »

You don't need a ski jump to get planes in the air if you use catapults, so why have a ski jump at all if we're so keen on catapults? Ski jumps are used on carriers when you want a short runway (a catapult already provides this) without having to deal with the cost of a catapult. So I don't understand why the Z has both. Ski jumps force weight limitations on the aircraft and occupy space at the front of the deck that you could otherwise use if it was a flattop.

If you already achieve takeoff speeds using a catapult, why are you taking the extra cost to angle the flight deck upwards?
You don't need to use a ski jump to get planes in the air if you use catapults, but there is literally no downside to using them. At all.
Ski jumps don't force limitations on the aircraft by themselves, the carriers that use ski jumps don't have catapults and that is why they have limitations. I mean, logically, tell me, why would a ramp force weight limitations if it actually incerases lift? The only think I can think of is load on the gear, but plane landing using arrestor wires has more load on the gear than one using a ramp anyway, and if that's a problem you can just have shallower ramp (the ones in my image are actually too steep tbh, but it's just visualization). And while they occupy the space which could be flattop, it's not worse in any way, it's actually an extension that again, gives you more lift.

The extra cost to angle the deck upwards is meager compared to catapult anyway, and why... well, extra lift is always nice, and might enable us to use heavier aircraft in future. And, considering we don't have blast shields on any proposal, it might enable us to launch jets without frying whole crew, because we might afford less throttle on the jet, since it would have lift to spare.

I mean, man, trust me, I checked for hours if there is any reason as to why US Navy doesn't use ski jumps, the only I found being: "we don't need it hurr durr Ameirca stronk ramps are low-tech russianpoor". And to quote after Wikipedia:
"U.S. Marine aviators who experimented with takeoffs from the Spanish aircraft carrier found the improvement to be "nothing short of amazing." The United States is the only country which operates STOVL aircraft from carriers without a ski-jump ramp."

I'll grant that it would probably be wider to make space for the takeoff catapult, but I kind of doubt it, since that space would already be there since the Tiger Star has an offset island. Even if the Pattern C was wider than the Z carrier, it would still be more cost effective, because unlike the Z carrier it doesn't have an entire second deck dedicated to a runway that can only launch planes when you don't need that much space to launch planes using a catapult. It's extremely wasteful.
That deck is there ANYWAY. It's the hangar. All you do is open it and give it a catapult with a bit of deck to launch the planes. You don't use whole length of the deck for launching the plane using a catapult, you use the tip. All the area behind the catapult on the lower deck is the goddamn hangar, and planes just roll onto the catapult after each other.
Also, angled deck makes the landing less safe, especially without optical landing system (that we don't have, and is basically required for angled deck carriers), because you're coming at the carrier at angle, so the carrier is moving away to your side.
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evictedSaint

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2994 on: May 31, 2017, 12:02:40 pm »

Neat!

But I feel the need to point out those are more modern jets, with higher thrust capabilities and steam catapults.  If rocket catapults work out fine, then I guess it's not an issue (though I still feel a ski jump would be an easy, cheap, low-tech bonus, I'm content with the current design for the moment.  It doesn't make much sense to not include it, but I doubt we can change your mind and your design is the best we have at the moment).

piratejoe

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2995 on: May 31, 2017, 12:14:58 pm »

Quote
Future Design: UFAF-SB-40 'Ice Giant'

The United Forenian Air Force Strategic Bomber 'Ice Giant' is Forenia's first heavy strategic bomber.  Utilizing four jet engines for thrust, the Ice Giant is tuned to fly as high and as fast as possible, relying primarily on staying out of range of interceptors for survivability.  Features a pressurized internal cabin.  A massive wingspan provides as much lift as possible, with an equally large rudder and elevator for stability.  It features a 2x20 mm AC-20 on the tail, a 2x20 mm AC-20 remote-controlled on the belly, and another 2x20 mm AC-20 mm on the roof for protection.  Makes use of an advanced gyroscopic bombsight for semi-accurate bombing runs. 

Hey guys, check out this bomber I totally just designed.  I totally came up with the name all on my own.  What do you think of it, piratejoe?
Theif, at least have the dignity to have 6 engines instead of just 4, also, I'll have your hand for this
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Azzuro

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2996 on: May 31, 2017, 12:16:58 pm »

You still don't get what I'm talking about, do you? The Pattern C will be bigger, either in length or width (jutting out), than the Z carrier. You're making a disingenuous comparison between two different classes of carrier. A better comparison would be the Centaur pre and post-refit, which is wider hulled? That's the decision facing us, whether or not this thing will have angled deck, which will make it bigger and thus more difficult. I don't know how you can claim with a straight face that two runways will occupy the same surface area as one.

Also, we aren't cutting a hole in the bow to launch planes out of. We're constructing another deck on top of the existing, which the Wasp Nest does as well. Angled deck is "a new shape", I don't know how you can claim it's the same shape.
I'll grant that it would probably be wider to make space for the takeoff catapult, but I kind of doubt it, since that space would already be there since the Tiger Star has an offset island. Even if the Pattern C was wider than the Z carrier, it would still be more cost effective, because unlike the Z carrier it doesn't have an entire second deck dedicated to a runway that can only launch planes when you don't need that much space to launch planes using a catapult. It's extremely wasteful.

Have you not seen the photographs that I showed? The decks are rectangular, nothing is "jutting out" as you say, and even if it did does that really imply increased cost? The whole point of an angled deck is to maximize the use of the space you have to land planes on a deck at has the least length you need. It doesn't have to be an irregular shape, but if it was, it wouldn't make the carrier cost more.
http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files/Angleddeck-4.jpg
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/images/europe/r81-2.jpg
http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files/Angleddeck-3.jpg
This one even looks like it was rectangular but a chunk was cut out of it because it wasn't needed. So it's not really more total space than a centerline carrier, more like the space has been rearranged.

Because either one by itself may not be enough to get a heavily-laden plane airborne. The Thunderbird requires a 'Long Runway'. Personally I doubt we will be able to launch it from any carrier we build, but future jets might require slightly less of a run up- but still more than a catapult can provide alone.
The primary limiting factor on a carrier's length isn't takeoff, it's landing. The runway, the longest part of the deck, is mainly for landing planes because you need more space to stop a plane than you need to send one off, which is why the Pattern C's is angled, to save on length and increase the amount of use we get out of the rest of the deck, as well as making landings safer.

Why yes, I also fired up Google Image Search to cherry-pick pictures of carriers supporting my point. My point was that for the same length of runway, an angled deck would take up more surface area than just one centreline one. That was also my point in bringing up the Centaur pre- and post-refit. And I would encourage you to vet your examples more carefully, the last of those pictures is the USS Coral Sea, and a chunk of flight deck was NOT cut out of it when it was refitted in 1957 for an angled deck. Here's some pre- and post-pics:
Spoiler: Before (large image!) (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: After (click to show/hide)
Seems pretty jutting-out-ish to me, and much wider too.

Also, I like how you can claim that Z carrier will require the entire hangar deck for planes to take off, then in the next post claim that planes actually only require a short space to take off on the Pattern C. This is all the more annoying because the Z has both ski jump and catapult, and will launch planes in a shorter distance than the Pattern C which absolutely refuses to have ski jump.

I want to talk about ski jump + catapult:

[...] equipped with rocket-powered (or failing that, steam or hydraulic or pneumatic or just none at all) catapults to help our aircraft get up to speed and both terminating in ski jump ramps to ensure our planes start climbing immediately.
You don't need a ski jump to get planes in the air if you use catapults, so why have a ski jump at all if we're so keen on catapults? Ski jumps are used on carriers when you want a short runway (a catapult already provides this) without having to deal with the cost of a catapult. So I don't understand why the Z has both. Ski jumps force weight limitations on the aircraft and occupy space at the front of the deck that you could otherwise use if it was a flattop.

If you already achieve takeoff speeds using a catapult, why are you taking the extra cost to angle the flight deck upwards?

Ski jumps DO NOT force weight limitations on the aircraft. They increase the limitations that carrier-launched aircraft already operate under. This is like saying that rifled barrels decrease the accuracy of a gun because they don't make the bullets perfectly accurate.

Also, literally no angled deck carriers park aircraft at the front of the deck. The ski-jump occupies the area that would already be reserved for the aircraft's take-off roll, and decreases the length of that roll. And really, ski-jumps are so simple that they will not increase the cost. If we had to choose between ski-jumps and catapults for cost reasons, the answer is obvious.

Again, any answer to this? Ski-jump ramps don't occupy usable space because said space will be used for take-off. Unless the Pattern C intended to use that bow space and play a sliding block puzzle with planes every time they wanted to scramble fighters.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 12:21:31 pm by Azzuro »
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Sheb

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2997 on: May 31, 2017, 12:50:11 pm »

The think is that if you want a catapult+ski jump you need more space than for just catapult.
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piratejoe

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2998 on: May 31, 2017, 12:59:31 pm »


Quote from: Votes
(7) B3 'Compensator' 300mm Coastal Gun/Naval Cannon: Kashyyk, khan boyzitbig, Taricus, strongpoint, Nav, 10ebbor10, Baffler
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern A:
(9*) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern C: GUNINANRUNIN, Kashyyk*, Stabby, Madman198237, helmacon, McHuman, voidslayer, 3_14159, evictedSaint
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern D:
(10*) UFS-CV-40 Zheleznogorod B: Kot, Mulisa, Azzuro, NUKE9.13, Piratejoe, Sheb, Powder Miner, Andrea, NAV*, Aedel
0 "Killerqueen":
0 Unity Tiger Armor:
1 "Salad Shake" class heavy transport: RAM
1! "Psyche" fake carrier and real transport: RAM!
*second choice?
!Also Ram because apparantly that is a thing now. And of course the name was changed, are we trying to be anachronistic here? Anachronisms cost more
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Azzuro

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Re: Intercontinental Arms Race: Winter 1940 (Design Phase)
« Reply #2999 on: May 31, 2017, 01:00:01 pm »

Quote from: Votes
(7) B3 'Compensator' 300mm Coastal Gun/Naval Cannon: Kashyyk, khan boyzitbig, Taricus, strongpoint, Nav, 10ebbor10, Baffler
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern A:
(9*) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern C: GUNINANRUNIN, Kashyyk*, Stabby, Madman198237, helmacon, McHuman, voidslayer, 3_14159, evictedSaint
(0) UFS-CV-40 'Tiger Star', Pattern D:
(10*) UFS-CV-40 Zheleznogorod B: Kot, Mulisa, Azzuro, NUKE9.13, Piratejoe, Sheb, Powder Miner, Andrea, Aedel, NAV*
0 "Killerqueen":
0 Unity Tiger Armor:
1 "Salad Shake" class heavy transport: RAM
1! "Psyche" fake carrier and real transport: RAM*
Quote
woomy (╹◡╹)🌹 - Today at 1:51 AM
#votekot
Taricus - Today at 1:51 AM
#VoteB3
Azzuro - Today at 1:51 AM
could you vote for him on B12?
Azzuro - Today at 1:52 AM
last votebox is hard to find, it's on page 199
woomy (╹◡╹)🌹 - Today at 1:52 AM
I will as soon as I'm at a computer
Azzuro - Today at 1:52 AM
what's your B12 name? I can add you in if you state that you want to vote Kot in here
woomy (╹◡╹)🌹 - Today at 1:53 AM
I'm Aedel on bay

For those curious, there is an equally massive debate between carrier and coastal artillery going on in Discord.

The think is that if you want a catapult+ski jump you need more space than for just catapult.

Ski jumps save on length of take-off roll needed, too, otherwise real-world navies wouldn't use it. Adding a ski-jump would decrease, not increase, the space required.
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