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Author Topic: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game  (Read 360095 times)

piecewise

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2475 on: April 23, 2020, 05:00:06 pm »

So.

Cabal as it is now is never really how it was initially intended. Anyone who has come in late and seen our OP knows that much. This system, and the underlying logic and mythology behind it, was never designed to stand up to the equivalent of Magical Tinker.  What that means is that as things progressed I made some pretty snap decisions on various things that, as the story unfolded and the logic behind how things work was more explained, started not to make sense.  Its to the point now that people asking increasingly in depth and complex questions fills me with dread because I have to keep a bunch of mutually exclusive or contradictory plates spinning. Its not terribly fun and its kind of why a handful of people here now have thousands of mana and are maxing out their levels without issue.


First thing's first: Permanence.

So permanent spells were just something I kind of took for granted but they don't really make sense in this world, least how they are.  The issue is that this is a world without natural mana regeneration, so how the hell do these permanent spells work? Shouldn't they just run out over time?  For humans and living things I assumed that they drew from a creature's bodily mana, the stuff that keeps them alive. Hence Benedict the Griffin getting more tired and unable to act the more stat boosts were stacked on him. There are two issues with that:

1. I kind of just have to make vague guesses as to when he should get tired and it doesn't really seem to do much.
2. It doesn't seem to happen to humans, hence the leveling up via +X to a stat.

Beyond that, there is the issue of permanent enchantments on non-living things. Aside from weird rule breaking artifacts, these things really shouldn't exist. They should have a "Battery" of mana they draw from and once thats up it goes away. Sure, maybe a "Staff of fireball" could cast fireballs for less mana than a standard fireball spell, but it shouldn't be an infinite thing. Kind of goes against the entire lore and setting to do that. Not to mention that it could be very easily abused (Make item that permanently generates gold, melt gold to mana, ???, Profit! No more mana crisis!).

So here's my intended fix of that

1. Permanent spells on items now work in two ways, standard and spirit infused. Standard is just a standard spell, cast like usual, but with the intent of being "permanent". These spells will now be no more difficult than single use spells (or at least only a bit more difficult) BUT will also not actually be permanent. When you cast them, you'll have the cost of casting + however much mana you wanna dump in to make the thing last. This extra mana will basically be the battery the enchantment or spell draws on.  How much mana it will draw with each "use" will depend on the effect, but I'll just be rolling standard polyhedral dice and draining that way. For example, you can make a "Wand of flamethrower" and depending on how much fire you pump out of it in one go, I'll roll Between like d4 and d20 for the amount used. Power isn't used otherwise. Spirit infused spells are basically the same but they require you to basically enslave a spirit (much like in the tech Dev and Co. are excavating) and bind them to the enchantment. What this basically means is that in addition to the stuff form the original, this spell will slowly generate mana each turn (as spirits do for players) in order to empower the spell. How much it generates and how much it can hold max depends on the spirit.  Things like Animating a painting will basically always be temporary unless spirit infused.

Mana CAN be added to permanent enchantments like reloading a gun, but their max capacity is determined by the amounted added when they were first made. Oh and words like "Permanent" would just make the costs of activating the thing cheaper, not make it actually permanent.

2.  Second is how permanent magic effects normal critters and, importantly, players. Now, there are lots of ways to handle this but the issue is that most of them require extensive retcons or are...just not very fun. I can start putting all sorts of limitations on things, making leveling up reduce some stat or how much magic you can hold or whatever but I don't really want to straight up punish people for leveling up. I also don't want to make you like...consume a spirit each time you do it because permanent enchantments are already gonna be spirit genocide so...The idea I have is this: I'm gonna steal from my old work and make it so that each time you level a stat, I roll on a chart and you might get mutated by doing so. It might not happen, it might happen, and if it happens it can be good, bad, or neutral.  This already happens to a degree (Big Eye Sy) but I want to make it an actual mechanic.  Of course,this means some of you (Dev's team in particular) might suddenly mutate like you downed a chugged a bottle of radioactive ooze. Oh and this applies to when you stick permanent, non-mana pool draining spells on yourself as well. You can either do a spell like a normal permanent one, or like a current permanent one, with the chance to mutate each time.

For Non-Player characters this will manifest in the more mundane stat manipulation manner. So making something super buff might slow it down, etc. Because its more reasonable to play a balancing act with an NPC than a player when it comes to leveling.





Second thing: How the hell do summoned creatures and objects work?


Summoned creatures are basically manifestations of mana, like any other spell. However, since they often hang around, I think its important to look at some of their properties.

1. Can they do magic?
Only if they're a "Permanent" spell, and they use up the mana that makes them to do it. They have access to the words that made them and no others, and they can't learn any more.  This of course only counts for creatures, not objects. A chair cannot use "Chair" magic. Least not unless you summon a chair that can use chair magic...

2. How long do they last?
Depends on their size and if they  do normal living thing stuff like eat.  It is possible for them to survive indefinitely by processing mana via eating. Basically, depending on their size, they'll get a dice roll every in game day to see how long they last, but as long as they're fed enough, that dice roll can be held off.  Summoned objects "decay" at a standard rate depending on how magical or otherworldly they are. Generally they'll last a lot longer than creatures though.

3. What about temporary summoned creatures and objects?
Anything that lasts over an hour is considered permanent. Otherwise, they're temporary. They last their time and go away. They can't use magic.





This is what I can think of for the moment. I might be back with more.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 06:49:36 pm by piecewise »
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2476 on: April 23, 2020, 05:43:32 pm »

Piecewise, was I following your original idea for the game? If not, what can I change for if I regain control of my body?
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Lenglon

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2477 on: April 23, 2020, 06:01:23 pm »

Um, is Nina causing problems? I mean, since she has barely any mana intake or output, it seems like she should be fine, but I fully admit to not really trying to keep in keeping with the game's original premise so...

Spoiler: Nina (click to show/hide)
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((I don't think heating something that is right above us to a ridiculous degree is very smart. Worst case scenario we become +metal statues+. This is a finely crafted metal statue. It is encrusted with sharkmist and HMRC. On the item is an image of HMRC and Pancaek. Pancaek is laughing. The HMRC is melting. The artwork relates to the encasing of the HMRC in metal by Pancaek during the Mission of Many People.))

piecewise

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2478 on: April 23, 2020, 06:38:10 pm »

Um, is Nina causing problems? I mean, since she has barely any mana intake or output, it seems like she should be fine, but I fully admit to not really trying to keep in keeping with the game's original premise so...

Spoiler: Nina (click to show/hide)
Piecewise, was I following your original idea for the game? If not, what can I change for if I regain control of my body?
You guys are both fine.  The real issue is basically slow build up of issues over time due to the system not really being well optimized and me not having really thought everything through well enough.  The issue isn't that we didn't stick to the original rules, thats totally fine. The issue is that I didn't really change anything after the game changed. For you guys it probably would never come up, but for the Magical Tinkerers, it can be an issue.

Egan_BW

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2479 on: April 23, 2020, 07:01:08 pm »

One thing I think we should note is the effects of spells which aren't themselves ongoing effects. If I blow a brick wall down with a fireball, the wall isn't going to get back up in an hour because I didn't make the damage effect from the fireball permanent.
So in my opinion, creating or reforming things which don't require any ongoing effect should be permanent. So summoning something like a normal steel dagger, which is just matter, should use some mana to create the matter but then that matter should stick around because it's no longer using up energy any more than any other piece of matter already in the world.
If I did something like a grow a tail, whether or not that sort of thing requires more mana would depend on if it makes sense biologically. If all I've done is change my body in a way that it can maintain itself without magic, as a simple physical object, or if it needs additional energy to keep working.

I find it more coherent if you rename what you've referred to here as "permanent" to "persistent". Makes it clear that these are things which stick around but not necessarily forever.

Do the permanent stat die increases work like normal levelups, or more like enchantments? Could go either way there.


This could be a bit out there, but if you want to make upgrades from mana impermanent but still have some kind of progression, it might be worth adding a sort of experience or skill gain system. It would be a big change, but it could release a little pressure from the mana system.
It's down to if you just want to clarify certain spell types and move on or start on Cabal Second Edition though. ;p
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syvarris

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2480 on: April 23, 2020, 08:33:07 pm »

Its to the point now that people asking increasingly in depth and complex questions fills me with dread because I have to keep a bunch of mutually exclusive or contradictory plates spinning. Its not terribly fun

Second verse, same as the first...

Tinker is increasingly the rope I gave others with which to hang me.



I agree with just making all magical items require a power source.  It's more suitable to the game, and it means players have more of a linear limit; if we need to charge items and spend actions using them, then we can't just continually snowball by summoning more and more permanent boons.

All the stated methods of fixing it seem solid.  I think some improvements to biological things should be reasonably permanent without additional cost.  Casting a spell to make a fat man thin, or a weedy kid fit, seems like the kind of thing that should be a purely positive tradeoff.  Making humans have d12s without tradeoffs is unreasonable, but lots of people could be improved by making them basically average, which doesn't seem like something that should come with downsides.

Also, I think some magical items should be very cheap, cheaper than 1d4 cost.  On the order of 1 mana to function for an extended period.  Like Ekrov's test-messaging plates, which just transmit simple 2d illusions to the other plate.


Allowing summoned creations to use versatile magic, as an essentially free upgrade, seems like a very bad idea.  It's additional actions and presence for very low cost.  I think caster summons should only be possible if you have special words that themselves grant the ability to cast magic.  Yes, you could still summon helpers, then give them summoned fireball wands for a similar effect, or you could enchant the helpers to themselves be the fireball wands... but both should probably also works with hired humans, and neither is as versatile as essentially cloning your own magical powers.

It seems reasonable to allow magical summons to survive off food, the same as normally created animals do.  I could see issues with making armies of drainable creatures which functionally work as food-to-mana converters... but then that's not very different from forming a cult of humans to drain.  You should probably have a standardized cost of food per point of mana.


I agree with almost everything Egan said above.  An experience system wouldn't add anything, I don't think.



...its kind of why a handful of people here now have thousands of mana and are maxing out their levels without issue.

Well, no, none of this affects the thousands of mana that we've gotten in Gravid.  It affects how we can spend it, but if we can't spend it on permanent free magical items then we'd probably be spending even more of it on maxing our stats.

Change the system to have more resource costs, it won't affect the fact that you dumped us onto a pile of nigh-unlimited resources.  :\


In any case--I'd appreciate it if you could handle the sudden mutations slowly.  I don't care very much about Cabal's balance or systems very much, but I really enjoy the RP.  It'd be really jarring to just have a pile of mutations suddenly dropped on us with no story justification or getting eased into it or anything.

Egan_BW

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2481 on: April 23, 2020, 08:40:34 pm »

I do prefer if generally the same rules apply to PCs and NPCs, at least in a way that makes sense in-universe. So I'll request that NPC mages have the same levelup-but-mutations system as PC mages. Yes, I know that it probably won't matter at all, but muh lore consistency.

Also, that will probably make the Breakers a lot more... individually interesting.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2482 on: April 23, 2020, 08:42:34 pm »

I do prefer if generally the same rules apply to PCs and NPCs, at least in a way that makes sense in-universe. So I'll request that NPC mages have the same levelup-but-mutations system as PC mages. Yes, I know that it probably won't matter at all, but muh lore consistency.

Also, that will probably make the Breakers a lot more... individually interesting.
Agreed, whether or not the creatures are controlled by players or not shouldn;t change how leveling works
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Egan_BW

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2483 on: April 23, 2020, 08:51:09 pm »

Lore explanation: mage's bodies are unusually pliable, making it easier for modifications to "stick" to them, but also causing mutations.
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Devastator

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2484 on: April 23, 2020, 09:00:31 pm »

Okay, for mutations and pricing purposes, here's all the levelups and magic gear that my character has, or at least ones I'm keeping:

Some of these are downgrades as I'm not keeping that level or enchantment anymore.

Str  d4 +1
Speed  d8 +1
Endurance  d10+4
Knowledge  d8+2
Will  d10+3
Senses  d8 +2

Enhanced knowledge to d8 from d4. (don't remember.  d12?)
Reduced in weight to 75% normal.  (two d8s.)
Large elf ears.  (Record of lodoss-war level)  (two d8s.)
Resistance to all toxins. (d8)


Here are the actions.

Use a series of Strengthen View spells on the king's key to get visions of what things can be done with it.  This isn't necessarily limited to visions.. try for hearing if it looks like passwords or such are involved too.  Willing to retry failures and spend up to 30 mana on this.  Do try in particular to find out how to unlock the core.

Since a day has been marked off, also go try to learn that Contain word Ekrov identified, and dissassemble one of the control suits, looking for more possible words out of it's mechanisms, and storing the precious metal if not.  The crew are to continue digging for the palace.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 12:56:49 pm by Devastator »
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Lenglon

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2485 on: April 23, 2020, 11:21:37 pm »

wait a sec, I wasn't paying full attention to things, but spirits generate mana over time? Nina and Adam haven't seen anything like that. Is that just because Nina can't tap Adam's mana pool well?
geez, Adam probably has a gigantic reserve built up over time then, since he doesn't have any regular drain on him. or am I completely misunderstanding how that works? probably just misunderstanding it, but I am kinda curious now.
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((I don't think heating something that is right above us to a ridiculous degree is very smart. Worst case scenario we become +metal statues+. This is a finely crafted metal statue. It is encrusted with sharkmist and HMRC. On the item is an image of HMRC and Pancaek. Pancaek is laughing. The HMRC is melting. The artwork relates to the encasing of the HMRC in metal by Pancaek during the Mission of Many People.))

Egan_BW

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2486 on: April 24, 2020, 12:26:50 am »

I think that your spirit does produce mana, but you can't absorb it directly because of your method. There is probably a way you could use it though. Maybe by creating a magic item that it can go in and out of at will.
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Devastator

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2487 on: April 24, 2020, 02:06:04 am »

That's also assuming your spirit doesn't waste it on the spiritual equivalent of booze and hookers.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2488 on: April 24, 2020, 02:12:54 am »

Not sure how much they can store up on their own. Maybe not a bunch.
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Pancaek

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Re: Cabal: Wizard Open World Game
« Reply #2489 on: April 24, 2020, 09:20:04 am »

Whatever you decide, I'd also prefer if the rules were roughly the same for players and NPCs.
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