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Author Topic: MMOs?  (Read 16780 times)

Folly

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2018, 07:48:45 pm »

Pantheon: Perception System

This, honestly, is exactly why I believe Pantheon will be the next great MMO.
Other MMO dev's just copy the existing systems and tack on some gimmick to make it seem new. Pantheon dev's reevaluate the systems at every level, asking themselves which components are fun and necessary, and then rebuild everything to make an optimal user experience.
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Starver

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2018, 05:06:00 am »

It'll be interesting when MMOs get to be as good at this kind of thing as MUDs can be. ('Can be', being the operative phrase, obviously.)
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Urist McSpike

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2018, 10:35:28 pm »

Pantheon: Perception System

This, honestly, is exactly why I believe Pantheon will be the next great MMO.
Other MMO dev's just copy the existing systems and tack on some gimmick to make it seem new. Pantheon dev's reevaluate the systems at every level, asking themselves which components are fun and necessary, and then rebuild everything to make an optimal user experience.

That seems like it could be a really neat thing.  The problem is, it depends on devs to put in all the stuff for it, so that you have clues and decision trees to dig into.

Everquest (which had very few quests, really), required you to go actually talk to NPC's to get a quest - instead of just clicking on whoever had a ! over their head.  As in /say hello, read what they talk about, and ask questions about things.  I actually found an unknown quest like that, although it was broken.  Even did a bug report, had a GM come out and go through the conversation.  Never was fixed.

It was a neat discovery moment, though.  For those who know the game, it was the barbarian camp out in the Karana's.  Talk to the chief, he mentions his son & daughter, you can ask about them, even go talk to them.  Nothing much other than random dialogue, so I started running away.  Then I thought "Wait a tick!  He didn't mention his wife?"  Went back, asked about his wife - sure enough.  Got the sad story about how she was killed by some monster, and he can still hear it's cry of "Brooooon!"  (Who was a random named hill giant spawn in the zone)  I'd imagine it was supposed to drop an item that you'd give to him, but nothing came of it.

I guess we're stuck with the same model of dev-created content, until we reach the sci-fi point of having AI's running VR gaming worlds and managing all the NPC's.
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Kagus

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2018, 03:43:25 am »

ARK devs make piratical full-loot PvP MMO where shipowners can hire other players on as crew (or just use AI bots).

Game supposedly drops tomorrow. I'm curious to see how they intend to tackle the many potential problems with this concept, such as the glaring malfunction of them being the folks behind ARK.

Mattk50

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2018, 06:26:49 am »

ARK devs make piratical full-loot PvP MMO where shipowners can hire other players on as crew (or just use AI bots).

Game supposedly drops tomorrow. I'm curious to see how they intend to tackle the many potential problems with this concept, such as the glaring malfunction of them being the folks behind ARK.

Watching this, honestly the biggest danger i see with this is potential pay to win as is becoming standard in MMOs. It's hard because atlas is charging a single purchase price, for them to maintain mmo servers long term will mean some other income stream, and the ark devs have proven themselves greedy in the past too (releasing expansions for a game in early access). There is potential for abuse. I am still very intrigued by Atlas though.
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Kagus

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2018, 04:48:42 pm »

According to the timer, it launches in a little over an hour from this posting. Then there's the download time, and probably some blockage with everyone trying to buy/download/play at the same time.

More interestingly, I found an interview on RPS with a couple of the devs, and some of the points they bring up are... Curious.

Governments? Real-time aging (why can nobody spell that word?)? Wildly overambitious statements? Hmm.


Also, it looks like the ships will be crewed by AI crewmen, but you can assign players as ship's officers to micromanage specific groups of AI crewmen. Could be interesting, all depending on how it's handled.

Personally, I think the building aspect combined with the company/government/taxation angle is going to horrifically bloat everything to bits, and there's going to be a rush to claim and lock down as much territory as possible with big fat gamer clans. Historically accurate, I suppose, but not necessarily a good time for anyone without multiple X's on either side of their name...

There's a launch-day sale of $25, which will then be going up to $30 once it goes into standard Early Access. I think I'll risk the extra $5 and wait a while to see how this thing's actually been cobbled together, especially seeing how stingy the devs have been with gameplay videos.

Rex_Nex

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2018, 06:06:14 pm »

I will say that since I made my post, I have gotten addicted to FFXIV. It's quite good, but you have to chug through a lot (50h+) of somewhat mediocre content before you start hitting the expansions where the production values skyrocket. With that said, the boss fights even early on are some of my favorite content of any MMO and the music is absolutely beautiful. The combat starts off very slow, but once you unlock some skills and understand weaving (more or less the art of chaining skills together as efficiently as you can) it's also a blast.

No other MMO can really compare in that sense; XIV's bossfights are an elaborate dance set to beautiful music and supported by good combat mechanics. It's just too bad that there's so much fluff you have to get through first, and even more of a shame that the story doesn't become compelling until then either.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 06:13:42 pm by Rex_Nex »
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Teneb

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2018, 06:37:19 pm »

I will say that since I made my post, I have gotten addicted to FFXIV. It's quite good, but you have to chug through a lot (50h+) of somewhat mediocre content before you start hitting the expansions where the production values skyrocket. With that said, the boss fights even early on are some of my favorite content of any MMO and the music is absolutely beautiful. The combat starts off very slow, but once you unlock some skills and understand weaving (more or less the art of chaining skills together as efficiently as you can) it's also a blast.

No other MMO can really compare in that sense; XIV's bossfights are an elaborate dance set to beautiful music and supported by good combat mechanics. It's just too bad that there's so much fluff you have to get through first, and even more of a shame that the story doesn't become compelling until then either.
Also, ya know, subscription with paid expansions.

If it was only either of those, I'd probably play it. Well, maybe not if it was sub-based, since I sometimes take breaks from games.
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Folly

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2018, 07:21:33 pm »

you have to chug through a lot (50h+) of somewhat mediocre content before you start hitting the expansions where the production values skyrocket.

Did you seriously finish the main story in 50 hours? When I did it, speedrunning with guides, it took me a bit over 200 hours. That was over a year ago and things may have changed since then, but I remember it being one of the most tedious series of fetch-quests that I have ever endured.

No other MMO can really compare in that sense; XIV's bossfights are an elaborate dance set to beautiful music and supported by good combat mechanics.

I have to take issue with this statement. Everquest 1/2, Rift, Tera, Archeage, DCUO, and Guild Wars 2 are just a few examples of MMO's I've played with elaborate and lengthy giant boss fights. You could certainly argue that FFXIV does it better, but you can't say it's beyond compare.
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Rex_Nex

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2018, 08:12:25 pm »

you have to chug through a lot (50h+) of somewhat mediocre content before you start hitting the expansions where the production values skyrocket.

Did you seriously finish the main story in 50 hours? When I did it, speedrunning with guides, it took me a bit over 200 hours. That was over a year ago and things may have changed since then, but I remember it being one of the most tedious series of fetch-quests that I have ever endured.

No other MMO can really compare in that sense; XIV's bossfights are an elaborate dance set to beautiful music and supported by good combat mechanics.

I have to take issue with this statement. Everquest 1/2, Rift, Tera, Archeage, DCUO, and Guild Wars 2 are just a few examples of MMO's I've played with elaborate and lengthy giant boss fights. You could certainly argue that FFXIV does it better, but you can't say it's beyond compare.

You can probably hit Heavensward in around 50h if you really commit, but yeah, it'll take between 100 and 200 for most people. I did it in around 100 hours (I'm most of the way through Heavensward with 135) with some light sidequesting, hanging out with friends, and reading all the dialogue/watching the cutscenes in full. It's definitely a commitment; paying for a sub doesn't make sense if it's going to take you a month to get to anything good.

I suppose it's not beyond compare, no, almost every decent MMO has elaborate bossfights :P FF14's are just the only ones I've enjoyed to the extent that I'd say it's the main reason to play the game.
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Teneb

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2018, 08:58:38 pm »

you have to chug through a lot (50h+) of somewhat mediocre content before you start hitting the expansions where the production values skyrocket.

Did you seriously finish the main story in 50 hours? When I did it, speedrunning with guides, it took me a bit over 200 hours. That was over a year ago and things may have changed since then, but I remember it being one of the most tedious series of fetch-quests that I have ever endured.

No other MMO can really compare in that sense; XIV's bossfights are an elaborate dance set to beautiful music and supported by good combat mechanics.

I have to take issue with this statement. Everquest 1/2, Rift, Tera, Archeage, DCUO, and Guild Wars 2 are just a few examples of MMO's I've played with elaborate and lengthy giant boss fights. You could certainly argue that FFXIV does it better, but you can't say it's beyond compare.

You can probably hit Heavensward in around 50h if you really commit, but yeah, it'll take between 100 and 200 for most people. I did it in around 100 hours (I'm most of the way through Heavensward with 135) with some light sidequesting, hanging out with friends, and reading all the dialogue/watching the cutscenes in full. It's definitely a commitment; paying for a sub doesn't make sense if it's going to take you a month to get to anything good.

I suppose it's not beyond compare, no, almost every decent MMO has elaborate bossfights :P FF14's are just the only ones I've enjoyed to the extent that I'd say it's the main reason to play the game.

Elder Scrolls Online, for all its many, many flaws... also has awesome boss fights. Especially on Veteran mode (think WoW's Heroic mode). Stuff like actually having to step into the fire, where tanking instict straight up tells you to move away from it (in short, the fire never goes away so the tank has to stack it in a single spot as much as possible), or a boss that has no aggro but instead does heavily-telegraphed instakills. Good stuff all around.
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Kagus

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2018, 12:12:27 pm »

So the ARK devs managed to bork the counted-down-to Atlas launch, and have pushed it back by another day. Still no pre-loads, and they've been a bit dodgy about actually talking to their community.

Not that I blame them, honestly... At the moment, their community's pretty shit. I certainly wouldn't want to talk to them!


To the devs' credit, they did release an extended trailer with slightly-longer snippets of gameplay involved. This thing really looks ridiculously overambitious, and I am still quite worried about how they're going to handle full loot PvP in a world where you build your ships piece by piece out of gathered resources...

Lots of things look quite nice and interesting though. Let's hope those aspects are the ones that shine through, eh?

Niveras

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2018, 07:48:13 pm »

I will say that since I made my post, I have gotten addicted to FFXIV. It's quite good, but you have to chug through a lot (50h+) of somewhat mediocre content before you start hitting the expansions where the production values skyrocket. With that said, the boss fights even early on are some of my favorite content of any MMO and the music is absolutely beautiful. The combat starts off very slow, but once you unlock some skills and understand weaving (more or less the art of chaining skills together as efficiently as you can) it's also a blast.

No other MMO can really compare in that sense; XIV's bossfights are an elaborate dance set to beautiful music and supported by good combat mechanics. It's just too bad that there's so much fluff you have to get through first, and even more of a shame that the story doesn't become compelling until then either.

I picked it up to try it out as a time waster over the holidays, given how many other people were talking about it.

I'm only about 10 hours into so far, but I'm finding that there are some real tedious things in the non-combat gameplay. The weird pauses when interacting with something (could be a quest object, could be an NPC to start a dialogue, could be a gathering node) - it is reminiscent of playing EQ with a 500ms-1s ping. I don't know what my ping is with the server I'm on (I'm in a North American data center so it shouldn't be terrible), but I'm not inclined to believe it is latency but rather just how the command interacts with the game. The way the hot bar disappears for a half second when you interact with an aethernet stone. The ridiculously obnoxious "Quest Accepted! Quest Completed! Level up!" banner that you can't modify in any way. I kind of don't like the quest dialogue interactions either (the cutscene-ish ones that happen for the main story, as opposed to the incidental quests that just get speech bubbles) - you can skip the dialogue but not the animations that happen between dialogues, although you can skip the cutscene entirely. Given most of the cutscenes lack voice acting, being unable to skip them 'properly' after reading without skipping the entire thing is a bit of a time waste. Come to think of it, the incidental quests are annoying in this way too, when animations are involved (handing something to an NPC or being handed something).

I really don't like how inventory/item management works. I mean in the sense of how tooltips are handled, what they show. Needing to right-click and select Equip from the dropdown menu instead of just right clicking or double click (double left just picks it up and puts it down), and also having to right click: compare to get a comparison instead of having it in the tooltip by default (I did have some complaint about gear comparisons but it seems it wasn't this; might have to do with seeing changes in bonuses instead of just ATK/DEF/MDEF). Similarly, having to click-drag or right click: hand over to move items to the Hand Over slot, instead of just double click, or having to actively use items through that system on quest objects instead of just being used directly. (They can also be put on a hotbar but either way, why do it that way at all? There's little difference between a quest object you interact with by itself versus one you can interact with only through a specific item you only get via the object's specific quest.)

At least you don't have to loot individual corpses. I can't imagine how much more tedious things would be if looting was subject to the same half second delay as you get with every other interaction.

Gathering (at least mining) is ridiculously tedious. When you interact with the node (subject to the same half second delay as interacting with anything), up pops a list of things you can try to harvest. You click one, take 3 seconds to go through the mining animation and pass/fail the attempt. Then you have to click again. But you can't click immediately after the last attempt, you have to wait for the animation to stop, with I guess some kind of GCD or cooldown time afterward, before you can click again. Can't just hold down on what you want to harvest, or otherwise somehow not click repeatedly unnecessarily several times.

Crafting isn't much better in that respect. I understand they wanted to try making it more involved than just "mash items together and poof! result", but every game I've seen that tried to do crafting Better (Vanguard, EQ2, Wildstar, LOTRO maybe?, and GW2 though I don't remember much of its system) seems overlook the fact that crafting requires mountains of fodder items to skill up with. If you need to craft these too, having a system wherein you must craft these items individually, with an involved process, is actually worse than the old system of 'pick something from a menu, click a button and wait 10 seconds." The advanced/involved crafting systems should be used only for final products. Wildstar might have handled this best with its experimentation system to learn the recipe, then let you create the items under a generic system, though as I say, I could see this being altered to have a broader variety of results for final items.

Maybe I'm being nitpicky. The combat itself seems fine, at least once I got used to having a GCD that isn't as telegraphed as what I was used to in WoW (my cast bar doubled as a GCD timer for instants, and included a latency marker for casting the next spell when you were technically able to but the server hadn't told you so yet due to lag). That said, I'm not exactly high level yet either.

Likewise, being low level, I'm of two minds about the whole "anyone can be any class (but you still have to level it)" thing. It kind of worked in Rift but - even if meta got in the way - Rift had a ridiculous number of classes for variety, on top of being able to mix/match souls, and you still had hard limits in class separation (a warrior can't be e.g. a mage soul). Feels like FFXIV's job list is very small to be letting anyone handle any role through a simple gear swap. Maybe I'm underestimating the investment cost of leveling all the jobs? Especially if people are saying it takes 200 hours to get level 50. Experience must fall off a lot, as I am level 20 and I'm not a recommended server with the accelerated experience.

I really wish they had addon support for expedient reason of having a mod that could filter out gold spam before I ever see it, as existed for WoW. It feels particularly problematic since about the only public chat I've seen has been gold spam. Does any kind of global/public chat (more global than linkshell, which are apparently limited to 128 users?) not exist? Otherwise, I presume all the chat is in linkshells? Like, even the cities were "dead" (no one talking in public, though it was well populated by players moving around; there was some emoting now and again). No chat in the non-city zones I went to (but then I rarely even crossed paths with anyone so they might be unpopulated too).
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 08:07:04 pm by Niveras »
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Folly

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2018, 10:46:28 pm »

This flew under my radar a bit, but Project Gorgon launched their free demo version on Steam last month. It's a fairly good sized demo, comprised of the newbie island, two early overworld zones, and most of the dungeons linked to those zones.

Anyone who thinks they might like an MMO with retro graphics, quirky dialogue, and a small but active development team, I definitely recommend taking the demo for a test-drive.
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Kagus

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Re: MMOs?
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2018, 06:16:46 pm »

So the ARK devs managed to bork the counted-down-to Atlas launch, and have pushed it back by another day. Still no pre-loads, and they've been a bit dodgy about actually talking to their community.

Not that I blame them, honestly... At the moment, their community's pretty shit. I certainly wouldn't want to talk to them!


To the devs' credit, they did release an extended trailer with slightly-longer snippets of gameplay involved. This thing really looks ridiculously overambitious, and I am still quite worried about how they're going to handle full loot PvP in a world where you build your ships piece by piece out of gathered resources...

Lots of things look quite nice and interesting though. Let's hope those aspects are the ones that shine through, eh?

Release date got pushed back again. See, guys, this is why you don't slap a countdown on something... And why you especially don't slap a new countdown on once the first one finishes.

Except... Release date for privileged streamers will be proceeding as planned! Yes, for a few glorious hours, the only players in this "up to 40,000 people on a single server!" MMO will be the streamers with promotional keys. Huzzah.


Yeah, nah. I'm not particularly trusting of the devs after ARK anyways, and the way they've been handling this release kerfuffle so far is just a bit tragic.


EDIT: They kept the newest release time, buuut... Well, while it was indeed possible to purchase the game (mostly, apparently several people were having issues with their purchases not getting confirmed... Probably a symptom of the floodgates opening) and install it (given you have around 100GB free), the servers were not in fact online. So, basically, a reasonably expensive main menu.

Due to the early keys/access for streamers, there are one or two videos of early gameplay out. From this, we can make a couple observations.

First of all, it's ARK. Seriously, there's a hidden menu that can be accessed via controller that I don't think was supposed to be left in.

Second, the "40,000 players exploring the same Globe simultaneously" line the game was advertised with is slightly misleading... The issue of having too many people in one spot was mentioned in the article I linked previously, and how they were planning on combating it with hurricanes, but at the moment you're just not allowed to enter a zone if it already has 150 people in it. This seems to include the 16 starter zones, which is causing a couple issues for the early adopters. Early Access growing pains.

Third, there's a bunch of skillpoints and the ARK RPG statblock/leveling, so you're gonna have some business with building your character the wrong way around and getting bummed because of said wrongbuilding. I'm going to go ahead and assume that there's an easy/accessible way of fixing this later on so you're not 10-20 levels into a character with no recourse. This also would indicate that it's geared towards filling a specific niche inside a larger clan structure, what with crafting vs. melee vs. ranged etc. Not entirely sure how I feel about this, as it could go either way. I mean, I prefer something in this direction versus the Sea of Thieves model of everyone being identical, but yeah.


There's still the chance that a lot of this is just early pains, and that they'll be able to sort it all out reasonably soon... But there are a couple slightly worrying design decisions being implied here, and the signs of "this is basically a mod of ARK" aren't particularly heartening.


Addendum: "Pathfinders. we're currently investigating a server side issue that is causing some servers to refuse connection. We're going to analyse what's happening and work on a fix for this right now." --From the developer twitter. I guess things are a bit stickier than just 150 people per zone. Whoopsies.


EDIT2: Uh, this is apparently *very* early access, as the map obviously can't be what they intend to use in the final version. Or the beta.

I mean, there may very well be 700 islands, like they advertised... But, uh... I'm not sure it really counts when you're just copying and pasting the same the same 10 islands 70 times. *cough*
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